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Withholds, relationships and self-inflicted mind control

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Orglodyte 2, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Orglodyte 2

    Orglodyte 2 Patron with Honors

    I've been out of Scientology for over 20 years, and I think I have untied most of the knots it tied in my mind. But a few days ago I ran across a beauty, and laughed as hard as I have in a long time. (Well, not counting certain episodes of Flight of the Conchords.)

    I often find myself in agony in my intimate relationships. I will have lots of thoughts about my partner, who is of course a complex individual with qualities I love, and qualities that drive me nuts. Some of these thoughts are "bad," or unacceptable, what a jerk they can be, etc. ... and of course I don't want to say these things to them because they would hurt, and many of them could not possibly do any good, because they are off base, unfair generalizations, born of lack of empathy, narrow viewpoint, or just seen through my own filters -- and I can see that.

    These withheld communications can become stronger and stronger until they are all that occupy my field of view. I cannot see my beloved through the wall of huge withholds.

    So it becomes very important to me that I SUPPRESS these thoughts and I go into another phase where I am monitoring my own thinking reflexively, trying not to think "illegal" thoughts. Integration becomes impossible and I find myself feeling divided, internally conflicted, like there's a little voice inside me screaming to be heard. So I go into an existential angst that has often led to me leaving the relationship to get some relief.

    What I realized is that this was implanted in me by Scientology.

    I was indoctrinated to believe that:

    1) Any overts, not confessed to, would impede my case.
    2) Critical thoughts count as withholds.
    3) These withholds could always be pulled by an auditor or sec-checker with an emeter.
    4) If I did confess to the illegal thought, I would get in big trouble.

    This left me highly motivated to NOT THINK THOSE THOUGHTS.

    So now, all these years later, the belief was still clinging to me: Since I must confess my darker or less desirable thoughts, I must not think them. I was still in the cage of self-enforced mind control.

    So I make this declaration:

    I can think anything I damn well please, and I have no obligation to tell ANYONE.

    Then I get to decide what to do with those thoughts! Most of the thoughts can be regarded with amusement and let go of. Some are valuable information in the quest for a harmonious relationship. Some may be valuable to pass along to someone else. But I get to decide, and it's my choice and my responsibility.

    I no longer have to police my own thinking, because the obligation to confess to thoughts is gone.

    Dang that feels good.

  2. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, indeed. Scientology is big on this, as are other religions as well. Thoughts are not things. Thoughts are not "overts"; Nor are they "sins". Scientology is bad about that but isn't alone.

    In Scientology, I got real tired of feeling guilty for thoughts. Like you I finally realized that thoughts are not things. They have no substance, no real effect, no value. No person is harmed by anything you think. (Except, apparently, L. Ron Hubbard). You think a "bad" thought -- and nothing has happened in the real world. It's perfectly OK. Likewise thinking a "good" thought. As nice as your thought might be, in the real world, nothing has happened.

    Of course, Scientology isn't alone in such "thought shaming" and "thought control". Not only some other religions, but even today's politically correct culture: You are guilty of "sexual assault" if someone else thinks you might have had a "wrong" thought about them... even if nothing was explicitly said or done...

    Guilt is a way to control others.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  3. Orglodyte 2

    Orglodyte 2 Patron with Honors

    Yup. And this makes its way forward strongly in New Age philosophy, the Secret and so on. One acquaintance of mine wrote on her kitchen wall, "Thoughts are Things" -- as inspiration! Surely the indoctrination started with my Christian upbringing. I think the supposed infallibility of the e-meter, along with the heavy emphasis on confessionals, kicks it up a notch. I was never so unfree in my own mind as I was as a Scientologist.
  4. Francois Tremblay

    Francois Tremblay Patron with Honors

    Thoughts are not things and they have no direct influence onto the world. But there are some thoughts which are indicative of deeper flaws of character. I certainly want to know if, for instance, anyone I know has pedophilic thoughts.
    phenomanon likes this.
  5. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Excellent, you've just passed through the last big hurdle to being free of the lingering damage to your mental state that Scientology created and fostered.
    You'll notice that it's us that can't have "withholds" from Scientology and NOT the other way around.
    Their organization is nothing but withheld evil intentions and malice towards us and our true mental state, they mask this with little merit of achievement awards such as Clear and OT, Class VI etc. to mask the harness laid upon your mind with all the deep, deep levels of domination and damage that they cause.
    You are told that you have to tell them EVERYTHING in session and/or ethics while they don't apply the concept of having to have totally clear lines of communication with you, me or anyone else.
    Because it's a foundational fulcrum of leverage and absolute control against and over you.
    Hubbard created a soul ensnaring toxic pseudo science out of the long established concept that people feel better after getting things off of their conscience through confessionals that exist in mainstream religions because he saw a way of manipulating people through using it as an instrument of domination in the minds and lives of his members.
    Hubbard admitted early on that people don't blow because of overts & withholds to David Mayo and one of the early high ranking officials who's name escapes me at the moment, getting old is hell on the memory, and said that people leave because of ARC breaks but that if word of this got out on this he'd lose control of the organization. I've posted the YouTube link on this being discussed and clarified before, perhaps someone remembers.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
    HelluvaHoax! likes this.
  6. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thought police. Just what we need.
  7. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?


  8. Out Effix

    Out Effix Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer


    that would be a problem that needs some professional help
  9. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    It was Captain-First ED International, Bill Franks

    And as regards: "because he saw a way of manipulating people through using it as an instrument of domination in the minds and lives of his members"

    This corroborates the lost El Con, with his Malignant Megalomania state of mind from which he wrote his affirmations. How it came to be that hubbard became imprinted earlier in his life than his composing the Admissions or Affirmations would be a very interesting study.

    I am sure there are some clues and views on it by Psychiatrists and Psychologists and the newer neuro-scientists to help with understanding it and tools becoming available to help prevent the formation of such messed up characters.
  10. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Yes, yes, yes! Thank you! I had forgotten Bill Franks name as he was before my time, or at least I'd never met him.
    This is the YouTube link where in the first few minutes he clarifies what were Hubbard's real thoughts on overts and withholds rather than the bullshit version he peddled so as to fuel the hysteria in his psychopathic pseudo religion. It's an easy listen and early in the first link he touches on this issue. This is the one key truth that set's me free from all of the harnesses I'd been saddled with from my years in Scientology. No better interview to listen to in my humble opinion. The second link is a more comprehensive version of the interview.

    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    dchoiceisalwaysrs and lotus like this.
  11. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

  12. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Here is an interesting tidbit from the John McMaster 1977 Affidavit regarding the evolution of Scientology Ethics...

    “On the 14th October 1965 I received a telephone call for Ron Hubbard requesting me to attend on him with five of my best auditors. A meeting duly took place at which Ron Hubbard said he wanted to improve further the technology of auditing by evolving a search and discover project. The object was to discover what was suppressing the person undergoing auditing and preventing progress. In other words to discover the nature of the inhibiting factor. This had always been my approach to auditing, but the object of the meeting seemed to be to hammer out a formula to enable others to pursue my particular pattern of auditing.

    I did much work in this field and in or about December 1965, when I had reported to Ron L. Hubbard [sic] as to the progress we had made, he decreed that the object of search and discover was to ascertain who was the suppressive person. That is to say it had to be a person exerting the suppressive influence. This was his own projection and I felt that I had been robbed of my brain-child. He had violated my conception of search and discover and as it later transpired this particular slant by Ron L. Hubbard heralded the vigorous onset of the Ethics Section.”
    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  13. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Thank god no.

    But anyone you know might certainly have had homosexual thoughts, evil thoughts on harming one, dreamed another one was already dead, wishing that old auntie would finally die so the inheritance will come in, or just simply beat the guy who was fondling your girlfriend in this dark street corner...

    Thoughts come in and go...that's the nature of the mind..producing thoughts.
    Then, we pick and choose those we want to come true (like watering a garden) and we let go those innapropriate.

    A good example of this is the last time you dreamed you were making love with a guy or even punching another one... :cool:

    That doesn't mean you are gay neither a murdered, because a normal human being do care about his thoughts like he does with his garden in letting grow only the good stuff.
    Bill likes this.
  14. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Some added data for your considerations. #1 You can never confess all of your overts,there are way too many since you entered the physical universe. The ones encountered in session and then withheld will impede your case for and in that session. The consideration to not tell your auditor something in session(cutting communication) will impede your gains for that session. #2 Withholds come after overts. People withhold overts. A critical thought is not an overt especially if it is true!! Constant carping criticism is a manifestation of some part of the O/W mechanism and that includes "missed withholds". (an other person's action that makes you wonder if they know about your overt/withhold) #3 Any one with enough of your trust who makes a safe space for you to communicate can "pull" your withholds without a meter at all!! #4 Fear of getting in trouble is the basic fear that creates withholds. Even an ethics action is supposed to help you get to a better condition. To do otherwise is gross out tech.IMHO
  15. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks for the Ron-by-the-book version of this. Here is some added views for your consideration: What if it's all bullshit? What if Ron's reason for OWs and Ethics is purely control? What if it's all part of the elaborate trap created by Ron? There is more evidence for these viewpoints than there is for Ron's version.
  16. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!


    The vast historical factual records available (and testimonies) speaks for the way his tech has been used and the results that could be observed on people (can only be discovered after they left the cult...)

    One very telling part of his overts\withold and ethics stuff is the RPF , that was used to ''rehabilitate'' people into conforming to the lightest ethics standards must respond to the ethics tech..otherwise sent to rpf...and intensively police polygraphed to pulled O\W's (real or false)
    It was obviously created to make one a better being and more happy....obviously....:eek:
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  17. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    LOL! I had plenty of withholds from them.
  18. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Who them ??? :D

    The withold concept in $cientology makes me cringe.

    It's the concept of '' intimacy and privacy'' that has been brought a step further into ''evil thoughts'' that must be pulled out to make one released of his toxic thoughts...and into the absolute willing to ''atone'' ($$$$ and slave work)

    I Claim my right to own my evil, toxic, nasty, naughty, dirty and whatever ''bad'' toughts..and to be left alone with them..when I want to share them or get released, I'll choose the person and will ensure he\she won't make money out of it...'cause I have a lot of them :oops::D
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  19. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    What if you are clueless to this truth of this construct. NOT MY PROBLEM
  20. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    You are not making any sense. Polygraphed????? Bull Shit. The Emeter is NOT A POLYGRAPH and there is no such thing as a machine that can detect lies. I am a lie detector though and it is a lot easier with an Emeter though not necessary. P.S. What goes on in the SO is a real gross mishandling of what Scientology is.