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You can read on this forum and still be a believer???

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Rmack, Nov 4, 2010.

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  1. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Some still believe that the OT III story is real? Are you kidding me?

    It's jaw-droppingly amazing to me that rational people, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, still believe that Laffy 'discovered' the ridiculous Xenu story, and that it is dangerous to hear about before doing the earlier bridge.

    I've read on this forum people who seem to believe that because they know a person or two who got sick some time after reading about it for the first time, that Hubbard was neither deranged nor lying about the effects of reading his poor 50ish sci fi story.

    Come on, people! Do you really think that it isn't just a coincidence? Even if it's true that you know someone who was sick sometime after reading that drug-induced fantasy, do you think this negates the thousands of people who read it and didn't suffer anything more than sore sides from laughing?

    I'm sure that there are plenty of people who got sick after reading 'Catch-22', but the thousands who read it with no ill effects aught to suggest to you that it wasn't Joseph Heller's writing that made them sick.

    I suspect that these people are so invested in auditing, and want to believe that it's the answer to all of their problems so badly, that they will overlook glaringly obvious contradictions to their hopes. Like the fact that many people who have had lots of Scientology are pretty nuts.

    Some of the most evil, sadistic bully types I've ever met were OT sevens. As far as making you more 'able', 'at cause' have 'case gain' or whatever buzz word you use; did it ever occur to these people that coming up with a quarter of a million dollars or so to hand over to a cult takes a pretty capable person in the first place?

    And even then, I've seen first hand some pretty messed-up people who had plenty of auditing.

    Come on, spit the cool-aid out! The cult is an evil scam. The evidence for this is more than overwhelming. You could decide that selling Amway is going to enlighten you, and if you really believe it, you could get just as much good out of it that you can get out of auditing.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  2. Moonchild

    Moonchild Patron with Honors

    Personally I believe (not ineluctably) that each of us is accompanied by other 'identities/beingnesses/sub-personalities' etc. that may be interpreted or explained by various means. This assumption is based on observation of myself and others and of course, YMMV on that.

    If it is in fact the case however, Hubbard's OTIII story seems a somewhat daft way of attempting a 'wrap' on that whole phenomenon. Apart from the improbability (from a scientific POV) it seems all too obvious that LRH was pushing the buttons of the world of 1967: the threat of global domination by the despotism that was Communism; over-population; social revisionism and upheaval threatening revolution and de-stabilisation. Remember the trouble in France just a year later that almost brought down the government?

    There's much more about OTIII (as you're aware) that's been dissected on this board many times over. To keep it brief and in summation: yes, there may be a 'phenomenon' there; whether the Hubster's version of events is even remotely accurate seems unlikely in the extreme.

    It does indeed seem incredible that someone that would have read at least some of the OTIII-related threads/posts here would still accept the literal truth of Ron's 'revelation.' :duh:
  3. AlphOhm

    AlphOhm Traveler of time/space

    Amway is a cult with a "christian" twist though--some want to avoid R6.

    Not long after Jett Travolta died though, I expected his dad to buy it and start promoting products that were "Kawasaki Syndrome" safe.

  4. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Many religious traditions -particularly the Judeo-Christian one- are quite clear about spirit-beings of different sorts being part of the teachings. All of them, actually, unless you include atheism and Darwinism as a religious belief.

    The concept of 'clusters' -as in a bunch of beings stuck together acting as one- is actually illustrated by a story in the New Testament where Jesus Christ commands a demon possessing a man to tell him it's name, and it responds 'Legion, for we are many'. Heard the story? It's pretty spooky, and J.C. winds up letting them occupy a heard of pigs that then promptly off themselves. The dude exorcised is reported to have experienced considerable case gain.

    One shot and all your b.t.'s are sent packing! Wouldn't that be nice?

    Even if the cult of $cientology had such a process, I'm sure they would bury it and never issue it, as it would result in much less income. Don't you agree?

    I don't believe any of the world's religious traditions besides this cult try to tell you that everybody is possessed by untold thousands of spirits.

    Maybe Laffy was, and maybe some people are. Maybe many who are don't know that they are, but I don't for one minute think everyone is a multi-demoniac.
  5. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    You just figured this out??

    You need to peruse the forum section titles and catch up.
  6. smartone

    smartone My Own Boss

    I'm amazed that they continue on with the Bridge after discovering the OT3 data.
  7. Moonchild

    Moonchild Patron with Honors

    Now you come to mention it, yes, I recall that episode from the New Testament. Jesus was casting out 'demons'.

    If it's the case that all 'attendant spirits' are demoniacal, i.e., harmful in nature then a 'one-shot' would

    certainly be dead handy and I agree that the Co$ might well put it on ice for the cynical reason you point to.

    Myself, I tend to a more secular view: that these apparent 'spiritual fellow travellers' are perhaps

    'sub-personalities' by which I mean bit'n'bobs of identities, personalities and whatever fragments and synthetic

    aglomerations thereof an individual concocts for themselves as they progress through the challenges of life. It would

    be less than sensible to presume that all of these fragmentary 'subs' are bent on evil and ipso facto deserving of

    exorcism I think.

    Whether they number in the units, tens, hundreds or thousands would depend on the individual case.

    Multi-demoniac? In the Judaeo-Christian sense? Nah, I don't think so either.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  8. Moonchild

    Moonchild Patron with Honors

    If my little theory is correct, then the individual would have created these 'sub-personalities' at a level that approximates the unconscious and would have done so for a reason, almost certainly in the interests of self-preservation.

    To force the consideration on the individual that these self-created identities are 'wrong' or 'evil' might not be a very good idea actually IMHO.
  9. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    By the time someone gets to OTIII, they are both heavily invested in the Church, and typically bound to the Church through various psychological mechanisms, as well. While they might be outraged by the sillyness of the OTIII story, from my reading, most of them give Hubbard the benefit of the doubt, and run it, rather than thinking about it very much.

    Much like watching a movie, or imagining something horrible, you can have an emotional reaction to a story, whether it is true or not. In fact, one of the deepest emotional reactions of my life was had while reading a fantasy novel. With the training that any scientologist who makes it to that level has, one interprets emotional reaction of any kind as evidence of "charge", especially if it is confirmed by magical motions on the emeter. Whether or not the story "indicates" to them (has real meaning in their lives), they will investigate this "charge", create or discover a story about it, and then find some meaning in that, which will give legitimacy to Hubbard's ravings.

    I would think, however, that doubt would definitely be seeded by the lack of correspondence with their own memory.
  10. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Yes, you'd think that but there's an inconvenient truth which occurs regarding OT3. There are obviously some desirable (from the pre-OT's viewpoint) results attainable. If OT3 gave zero results, possibly none would continue further.

    Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon your viewpoint), many seem to "make gains" on the Level. Whether these improvements in life are real to others or not seems moot, they explain the willingness to continue with the Bridge.

    I don't for a minute consider the Xenu story to be anything other than fiction and have written about it several times here on ESMB. Some choose to believe that there is absolutely nothing to be gained from doing OT3, the inconvenient truth is that *most* who have actually done it would disagree.
  11. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    I know how to find out the truth of this - let me get out my t(rusty) meter:

    OK, I'm scanning around (and on) my body....... LF

    Where's that?

    Ok, narrow the focus of my attention.... X

    OK, narrow it more........F

    Where's that? Oh, it's my ass hole...X

    OK, narrow it more......sF

    OK, got it.... it's right at the opening of my anus...sf

    That's not it.....focus more......LF

    Ah, it's right at the OPENING of my anus LFBD

    OK, "What are You"?

    Turd X

    Ass X

    Dick X

    Little Turd X

    Shit X

    Opening X

    Sphincter X

    L. Ron Hubbard LFBD F/N VGIS


    "Who are you?"

    L. Ron Hubbard X


    "Who are you?"

    L. Ron Hubbard.


    "Who were you before you were L. Ron Hubbard?"

    Giant Turd LFBD, F/N


    Blown? Yes?X No? F

    "Why didn't you blow?" X

    Because I'm L.Ron Hubbard. LFBD F/N

    (Auditor thinks...... Christ on a cracker, where's Dean Blair when I need him? :D)

    P.S. Now you know what it's like to audit SOLO NOTS for hours a day for years on end......:duh:

    P.P.S. Dean Blair is was a famous NOTS auditor at AOLA who now posts on ESMB.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  12. Moonchild

    Moonchild Patron with Honors

    Referring to the bolded section above: yes, that's right. The danger is that someone will associate natural emotional response to a story - a work of fiction - with literal truth; especially after years (probably) of indoctrination in the 'Crazy World of LRH'.
  13. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    As I see it, there are two questions;

    are these whateveryacallum live, sentient beings, or not,

    are they able to influence anyone's thoughts and actions?

    If both are true, then what makes them different than demons? Not all demons make a person a raving maniac. There is a story in Acts, if I recall, that has a couple of the apostles cast a demon out of a girl, and the community is upset, because she was divining things for them, but can no longer do it.

    What if OT III is reverse exorcism, and the 'case gain' you get are the demons using their powers through you?
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  14. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Check out my last post before this on this thread.
  15. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Yep, that was pretty funny even though it doesn't actually address the inconvenient truth I mentioned. :)
    (edit: sorry, I mistakenly thought you meant This Is Not Ok's NOTs one, that was funny).
    I suppose anything is possible but, in my experience, what you said about "demons exercising their powers" is in the category of "not even remotely possible" as an explanation of the "gains" some seem to attain on OT3.
  16. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Good questions. Personally, I don't think that there is such a thing as a disembodied spirit, as I think consciousness/spirit are emergent properties of highly organized systems. No system, no consciousness, no consciousness, no spirit. Thus, I consider all entities contacted in any form of processing to be your own psychic projections, with the exception of objectives/havingness, externalized perception type processes. Thus, if you are under the influence of any demons, they are demons of your own creation.
  17. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    I dunno, Panda. Auditing b.t.'s is a lot like talking to ghosts on a Ouija board, except you're using a needle on an electronic instrument instead of a planchett to judge the being's replies. In both cases, your sort of using your body as an antenna. And I've heard reports, and have personally seen the spiritual train wrecks that can result from both practices.

    What if the great insights are demons whispering to you, and the O.T. abilities are them doing things for you, and you get the credit? It would appear exactly the same, wouldn't it?
  18. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    This is why we shouldn't listen to our intuition! Nor should we ever accept science. It's probably all just demons.
  19. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    So when you die, that's it, huh? He who dies with the most toys wins?

    That is such a dangerous philosophy. Why not knock the other monkey over the head and take his bananas, as whoever has the most bananas is the happiest monkey, and there is no repercussions if you can just get away with it?

    I implore you to consider that this is simply not so, and you will be around in some form or the other when you body is plant food. And your every thought and action is still around somewhere in the quantum universe.
  20. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    I hear what you're saying but I'm guessing that you've never actually audited these Levels. You can imagine all sorts of scenarios if you so choose, the one you describe is a long way from what actually occurs in the auditing.