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You can read on this forum and still be a believer???

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Rmack, Nov 4, 2010.

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  1. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    My decades-long conversation with L. Ron Hubbard can be reduced to just two spoken lines.

    "Blow him."

    "Blow me"

    Veni, Donati, Cogniti, Blowi
  2. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Yeah, I go with that interpretation of Genesis 6:1-7.

    Many people believe that the 'Sons of God' where the righteous sons of Abel, and the 'daughters of men' where the sinful daughters of Cain, but that's pretty inconsistent with the text. What would make the offspring 'Nephalim' which means 'Fallen ones' if that were the case? And what would make them giants? And why not say sons of Abel or Cain? That type of title is used all through the Bible, why use a term that means Angel every place else that it is used?

    You see, any place else that the term 'Sons of God' (beni Elohim) is used in the Bible, it's always referring to angels.

    The text says that Noah was chosen because he was righteous and was 'perfect in his generations', meaning he was a pure strain human, which insinuates that not everyone was.

    The sons and daughters of Abel and Cain theorists have an even worse problem, though;

    Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    This seems to be a reference to the same thing. The word translated above as 'estate' is the same word used in describing the celestial bodies given to those who inherit eternal life.

    So, whether you believe it or not (and some people are not going to believe the Bible no matter how you prove it to them) the text does seem to say that angelic beings left their angelic bodies, apparently for something more physical, specifically to mate with the beautiful women of earth.

    I can relate! You ladies are so gorgeous, you'd tempt the Devil himself!

    History is rife with stories dismissed as myth describing the offspring of gods and women, not just the Bible. Hercules might have been a nephalim. Also the Greek titans, Perseus, and many others. These stories were written like journalism, as if they were relating a real story, regardless of what modern scholars want to label them.

    There is another theory -and this truly is just a theory as far as I'm concerned- that demons are the spirits of dead nephalim, not fallen angels. Angels seem to be able to interact one way or another with people and the universe, whereas demons are always looking to inhabit a body in order to be able to interact with our world. It's possible, but who knows?
  3. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Something I wanted to add about mythology.

    Many stories dismissed as myths could have happened. For instance, the story of Daedalus and Icarus. As you probably know, Daedalus fashioned wings out of feathers and wax, and used them to escape imprisonment on an island

    It would be dangerous, but technically possible to construct a sail out of large woven feathers secured by wax, maybe with a wooden frame and something like sap mixed in with the wax to make it more like a glue. Maybe the woven feathers could be secured by threads at the junctions. Line of some sort to tie it all together, and you have a primitive hang glider. It's not as hard to do as the scientists who labeled the story a myth thought. Hell, they thought human flight was impossible, so it had to be a myth.

    I read a story in Hang Gliding magazine years ago that some air junkies launched from the same island in the myth. They concluded that the story is plausible, and that the route is soar-able. One of the ways you can go soaring is to stay under clouds because they are formed from uplifting warmer air.

    You could speculate that this primative hang glider was vulnerable to direct sun light due to wax being used in the construction, which might have needed to be kept cool to not fall apart. The story goes that young Icarus got so stoked that he 'flew to close too the sun' and his wings melted. Maybe to close to the direct sun rays.

    There is another story of a guy in ancient China who creates what could have only been a hang glider made like a giant kite. He demonstrates it off the walls of the king (an excellent place for ridge-soaring if the wind is right) who promptly has him executed and his diver burned. The guy asks why, and the King explains that if this got out, all his defensive walls and strategies would be vulnerable. The king probably over-estimated the effectiveness of hang gliding troops, but it's easy to see how a paranoid ruler could come the those conclusions. This seems to have understandably ended ultra lite aviation in that kingdom. I remember when I was hang gliding, there were people would have been happy to do that to us!

    Also dismissed as myth by the same guys who asked us to believe that we came from a slimy pool. Talk about a ridiculous myth.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2010
  4. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    you think of the ocean as a slimy pool?
  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    I thought it was a reference to the gene pool. Just ask women about the men they've dated. :whistling:

    Mark A. Baker
  6. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Or the men about the women.
  7. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Veda, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying here (nor with Dart's posts that you linked to) but I do want to refute your tag of "disingenious" labelling those of us who call Hubbard's script "fiction".
    What else is it? Perhaps "science-fiction" would be more acceptable to you?

    My comment about the gains some/many/a few have on OT3 is, I believe, a valid comment and it's at least one explanation for why so many continue in scientology after reading the OT3 data. It *is* an inconvenient fact which many blithely dismiss. A poll/survey of Exes who have actually done OT3 might show more of the real scene but the gains are (usually) wholely subjective.

    There is more to this Level than meets the eye but it's certainly not the be-all and end-all it is/was promoted as. It contains lies, misdirections and serious errors which cause problems for many and, in my estimation, NOTs is more a solution to the problems created than a Level unto itself. As I said earlier, I firmly believe that if Hubbard had been given the NOTs materials before he came up with OT3, we'd have never heard of Xenu (comic-geeks being the exception).

    Finally, my "for the record" statement of 2 years ago stands
  8. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    As regards NOTS this was, as is my understanding, David Mayo's intent.

    Interesting viewpoint, which unfortunately can only serve as fodder for speculation at this point.

    Mark A. Baker
  9. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    It looks like you have been reading Zecharia Sitchen's books. I have read them too.

    For an alternate view:
  10. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Lol, proving myths to people is often very difficult.
  11. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

  12. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Well, you may have read about this on web pages BUT most of those speculations come from Zecharia Sitchin, AFAIK.

    You seem to like that stuff so you would probably be very entertained by his books. (For me, I think that it is a load of crap.)
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    IMO, Hubbard had to (in some form) eventually come up with a "whole track"/galactic bad guy so he could be the "whole track"/galactic good guy, plus he needed to explain to himself the reason for his (1966) failure in Southern Africa (and subsequent nervous breakdown). Additionally, with OT 3, he placed Scientologists even more at effect - and placed them even more "in the palm of his hand" - by officially making them all, essentially, "PTS type three" (See Scn Tech Dictionary), with the only remedy his - first time in 75 millions years - great accomplishment (1967) of overcoming the "Wall of Fire" and, with it, overcoming - so he told his followers - the final barrier to full OT.

    By 1965, Hubbard was going full speed ahead applying the basic ideas and methods of his 1955 (hoax anti-psychiatry black-propaganda) "Russian textbook" on Scientologists, although the incorporation of these ideas and methods would not be completed until around 1974.

    Then came the FBI raid of July 1977, and after the usual delay or time lag, Hubbard had his 2nd nervous breakdown. He regressed to the 1940s and early 1950s, became concerned with the "reputation" of Dianetics and the number of Clears, and - on a more practical side - become even more obsessed with money-getting. Thus, came the "discovery" of "Dianetic Clear," and the looting of the Missions.

    Along with this, with assistance from still (at that time) dedicated Sea Org member David Mayo, Hubbard came up with "NOTs," which, it seems, was to be stretched out over "years." (See 'From Clear to Eternity'.)

    Hubbard also started writing Science Fiction again (as therapy and distraction), even though he had said years earlier that he did want to be identified as a Science Fiction writer.

    Meanwhile, the Scientologists were sacrificing family, friends, life savings, inheritances, and sometimes their physical and mental health, to cross a Bridge that did not exist - Hubbard hadn't bothered to tell them that there was no "upper Bridge," and that his statements that there was an "upper Bridge" were lies.

    Still, his self-aggrandizing "real goal" (circa 1938) had been accomplished so, in a warped sense, Hubbard was successful.

    As for OT 3, I have never denied that there can be some occasional positive results from it. What I have said is that this, when it occurs, comes at too high a price (and I don't mean financially); it's a lousy trade off.

    From your link above:



    Perhaps you should emphasize this view a little more in your posts. :)

    And now, some inspirational quotes from the founder:

    "Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. Not for 'what' [any ideal] but just to survive... I turned the thing up [the 'dynamic principle of existence: Survive!'], so it's up to me to survive in a big way.

    "Personal immortality is only to be gained through the printed word, barred note, or painted canvas or hard granite [or stainless steel]. Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal [hidden agenda] as far as I am concerned. Things which stand too consistently in my way make me nervous.

    "It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which gives some idea of the magnitude of my attempt."

    L. Ron Hubbard, 'Excalibur' letter, from 1938

    "Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write.

    "Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.

    "Men are your slaves."

    L. Ron Hubbard, from his 'Affirmations', 1946
  14. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    There are some interesting links here
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  15. wiseman_of_the_watchtower

    wiseman_of_the_watchtower Patron with Honors

    For the record, I don't care what people believe. I only care about how they behave. If I were to adopt the attitude of correcting strange beliefs, I'd have to deal with Trekkies and UFO chasers, and they probably outnumber scientologists 10:1 Not to mention the flat earth society.

    If scientologists and their organizations stopped all their pre-programmed wrongdoings, I'd move on to something else. Like, my town needs a homeless shelter. (Especially considering Canadian winters) Remember, Xenu never hurt anybody - OSA did.

  16. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    The Serpents From Above Who Had Their Wings Clipped

    01.26.2010I am sure most of you are aware of the legends of old speaking about how the serpent gods from above came down to earth and taught man about all sorts of technologies.

    ■Legend has it that in Sumeria, the Reptilians or Anunnaki came from the Heavens and created men as a slave race to mine gold for them
    ■The book of Enoch speaks of the fallen angels who came down from the heavens and taught man about all sorts of technology including metallurgy, astrology etc., they mated with human females and were punished by God as a result.
    ■Japanese Emperors believe that they descend from Dragon gods that came from the sky
    ■Mucalinda, the king of snakes who shielded the Buddha from the elements as the Buddha sat in meditation
    ■The Aborigines teach about a snake race of that rule men from under the Earth e.g. the Rainbow Snake
    ■Ireland has a similar myth of how fairies, leprechauns and all other weird and wonderful creatures have their dominion under the Earth
    ■In Fiji Ratumaibulu was a serpent god who ruled the underworld and made fruit trees bloom.
    ■China teaches that a serpent queen interbred with man
    ■India called the reptilian gods Nagas and believe they seeded their royal families
    ■In Africa there are people called the Chitari i.e. The children of the serpent.
    ■The Royal Kings of Africa believed that they were descendants of serpent gods that came from the skies
    ■In Meso-America the Aztecs, Toltecs, Olmecs and Mayans believed in Serpent Gods, the Mayans were known as the people of the Serpent, Quetzalcoatl was a serpent god depicted with wings (coatl means serpent). The mother of Quetzalcoatl was the Aztec goddess Cihuacoatl (”The Lady of the serpent”). Quetzalcoatl’s father was Mixcoatl (”Cloud Serpent”).
    ■Many of the world’s cultures has the winged sun disc symbol which often has two snakes surrounding the sun disc
    ■In Ancient Egypt, where the earliest written cultural records exist, the serpent appears from the beginning to the end of their mythology
    ■In North America certain the Hopi tribe of Native Americans believe that sky gods came down to breed with their women and called them their Serpent Brothers
    ■Jews and Christians believe that the Nephilim were the children of the Sons of God and the Daughters of man or the Nephilim
    ■Celtic & Greek mythology speaks of similar gods coming down and mating with humans to produce mighty offspring such as Setanta and Hercules
    ■The Greek Ladon and the Norse Níðhöggr (Nidhogg Nagar) are sometimes described as serpents and sometimes as dragons
    ■In Hindu mythology Lord Vishnu is said to sleep while floating on the cosmic waters on the serpent Shesha.
    ■Moses who carried a snake on his staff is also thought by many to be the same entity of Saint Patrick, known as a snake banisher (did Patrick banish the Annunaki’s descendants from Ireland?).
    ■The list goes on and on and on…
    So, I had a ‘truth’ moment about this last night as I lay in my bed. I thought to myself, it is obvious that these snake people are what God referred to as ‘The Serpent’ in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis, God speaks about how the serpent had his limbs taken from him so that he would bite at mans heels and man would crush the serpent’s head because both man and the serpent were involved in the transgressions against God’s creation. So the punishment dished out was to both man and the serpent. Now the story in Genesis is more than likely symbolic… so what could it mean.

    Let’s take a look at Genesis 3: 14-3:17

    14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

    15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

    16 To the woman he said, ”I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’ ”Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat of it

    Clearly God was a little upset over what had happened between man and the serpent. For me it is obvious what had happened. The Earth was a perfectly balanced creation that God was satisfied with. The serpent people descended from the heavens and interfered with mankind (they were possibly sent here to watch over us which made the crime even more unbearable to the creator god). Maybe it started out with little interferences until all hell broke loose ending with man being mixed with these serpents yielding the mighty offspring etc. still spoken about today in our mythology.

    In any case, God dishes out his punishment, and this is the important bit… the Serpent was made crawl on his belly. I personally do not think that this is literal. It is a metaphor suggesting that something was taken from the Serpent. Now the depictions of the Serpent, particularly Quetzalcoatl and Ahuramazda, are often shown with them sitting in winged Sun Disks in the skies. Perhaps God simply stripped them of their technology, forcing them to crawl on their belly and eat the dust (i.e. live on Earth without the hope of escape) like humans do rather than be free to fly through the heavens as they once did. This is perhaps part of the imprisioning of the fallen angels which is spoken of in more than just Hebrew based mythology it is a common theme across the globe.

    I’ve discussed man’s punishment in other blog entries, for example the pain women suffer in childbirth because we were mixed with a species we shouldn’t have been mixed with and how this is my interpretation of original sin which is simply a genetic issue that has been passed down from generation to generation. Some religious people use the term original sin to make us feel guilt for simply being born, however, when you think of it as a genetic issue, you simply accept your heritage and know that you are born with the choice to do good or do bad. Personally, I try to be good as much as I can and I think that is all that can be expected of us.

    In conclusion, the serpent will bite at our heels and we will crush its head. Many people believe that the blood lines of the Sumerian gods were never lost and passed down from Sumeria to the Egyptian Pharoahs, then on to the Roman Emperors, then to the European and British Royal families and finally to the American Presidents. They believe that a brotherhood or brotherhoods have existed since these ancient times passing down knowledge from one generation to the next and that these organisations were set up to worship the serpents. These brotherhoods are made up of the world’s richest people, bankers, presidents, powerful politicians etc. This is not conspiracy theory, this is fact.

    So then perhaps Genesis 13 is quite factual and the Kings and Rich and Powerful of this Earth are descended from the snake bloodlines. They have certainly bitten at the heels of mankind since time immemorial, and men have in return risen up and crushed royalty. A great balancing act has been set up so that the masses do not even notice that we are still slaves to these royal families because the snake becomes subtiler and subtiler as time goes on. It is only when man is pushed too far does he rise up to fight his oppressors otherwise he is content with his lot. (Just ignore the part where Michael Jackson is an alien.) :D
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Most people whose mental and/or physical and/or financial health has been damaged by having been brought into Scientology by its misleading introductory services, and fraudulent advertising, have had little or no interaction with OSA.
  18. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Hatsheput, you have a strange definition of fact.
  19. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Another interpretation of this is through 'gematria'. The value of the Hebrew word for 'serpent' (Nachash) is the same value as the word for 'Messiah' (mashiac) which is 358, which, curiously, is the first coherent sequence of the Fibonacci sequence.

    It's been equated with the 'kundalini' or 'serpent force' that gets stimulated to rise from the base of the spine (the pole?) in enlightenment experiences.

    Moses' staff turning into a serpent, but swallowing up the pharaoh's magicians staffs might be symbolic of his force overwhelming theirs.

    The letter 'S' comes from the ancient hieroglyph of a snake, which has always stood for the vibrating sound 'ssssssss' or 'zzzzzzz' which sounds like a serpent. Also, a snakes movement suggests wave-form energy.

  20. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader