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Zorg's Radiation Levels

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by The Great Zorg, Mar 15, 2011.

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  1. Lohan2008

    Lohan2008 Gold Meritorious Patron

    reactor 2

    Oh my god, I wish I had not read up Uranium on wikipedia.

    That "hydrogen" explosion in reactor 2 was caused by the ion reaction on water which splits it into H202 (Hydrogen peroxide) and hydrogen and oxygen.

    I won't spell out the chemistry/maths but this crisis is going to get worse.


    :bigcry:
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  2. The Great Zorg

    The Great Zorg Gold Meritorious Patron

  3. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    design flaws

    I was an operator of a submarine nuclear propulsion plant for years, and worked briefly at a civillian nuclear electrical power generating plant. The design philosophy couldn't be more different. The civillian plant, designed for max power production, cheaper fuel (far less enriched) and no transients when gotten up to power, cuts all manner of corners as far as the inherent safety of the design or lack thereof.

    The first civillian plants were boiling water reactor plants ... that is, the reactor core functioned as the steam boiler, and water boiled for steam by the core itself would drive the turbines to power the electrical generators. That meant the entire plant was "crapped up", which is nukespeak for contaminated radioactively. I doubt that there are any boiling water plants in operation today, but, the civillian pressurized water plants are still not adequately designed. True, the water that goes thru the core is isolated from the turbines, does not go to steam, etc. The primary water goes thru a heat exchanger, the secondary side of which boils the water under pressure for steam to run the turbine. There are no isolation valves to isolate the reactor from the coolant loop(s) as in a Navy plant. Furthermore, there is no tolerance for fast transients. The plant is brought up to power via slow removal of a poison (sodium tetraborate, the boron in the "tetraborate" acts as a neutron absorber, slowing down or posioning the nuclear reaction) and therefore takes weeks to get the plant up to full power. Meanwhile, there are problems associated with shutting it down, initiation of emergency cooling, etc, etc, etc. The typical civillian pressurized water plant design is upgaphugged and I hope will be replaced with a newer design that will use fuel "pebbles" instead of rods, and will use pressurized helium to cool the core instead of pressurized water, and will allow the pebbles to be removed without having to break the seals on the reactor pressure vessil, or even shut down for that matter. In the event of a severe problem, the pebbles could simply be removed from the reactor and disbursed in a cooling medium such as water.

    Pete
     
  4. Pooks

    Pooks MERCHANT OF CHAOS

    Thank you.

    Here's my point. Things like building and maintaining a nuclear power plant should have the utmost concern for safety. Worst case scenarios should always be looked at and planned for. This plant is 40 years old and should have been srsly upgraded or taken off line.

    The almighty dollar needs to not be an issue when building and maintaining these places. But the fact is, that the almighty dollar is usually the first consideration. I'm not against nuclear power, I'm against stupidity and greed.
     
  5. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    You have supplied some excellent information. There is currently a push to establish nuclear power in Australia, and I laid down some ground rules (which will be ignored by anyone in power):

    • The plant is to be constructed on the site of Maralinga (already contaminated from post WW2 "testing");
    • The plant is to be regularly inspected by people who are totally ignorant of how the plant works, because they will pick up what the experts blithely ignore;
    • As demonstrated by the movies, Silkwood and The China Syndrome, ALL documentation is to be a matter of public record;
    • All "executive" staff shall have their offices and accommodations built above the reactor core, where they will be required to live and work 24*7. Their air and water supplies shall be taken from the turbine exhaust;
    • The CEO is the Captain of the ship, and duly required to go down with it;
    • All employees shall live in underground bunkers at least 30 km from the plant;
    • All staff shall work fixed shifts instead of rotating rosters (constantly stuffing up your employees' body rhythms is what causes more accidents);
    • Every component shall be built to a minimum of 150% the actual requirement for safe operation;
    • Despite such over-engineering, the plant shall never be allowed to operate beyond 100% capacity.
    Can anyone else think of other safeguards that will protect the community?

    Australia currently only has one operating Reactor at Lucas Heights. It is purely for experimentation and the production of "medical" isotopes. When it was built, there was nothing around it, but it was close enough to the airport (by water) so that medical stuff could be flown to the required location before it degraded to useless. In the time that it has been there, Sydney has expanded so much that the Reactor is now surrounded by Suburbia.

    The Reactor is due to be decommissioned, and a replacement built, but all the people around Lucas Heights are yelling, "Not In My Back Yard!"

    That's why I'm asking for any information regarding the still operational reactors. When are they going to be taken off-line for a complete safety inspection? Sure, if they're taken off-line right now, a significant portion of Japan's economy is going to be badly affected but I think a couple of months' inconvenience is an excellent investment in long-term safety -- if those reactors fail as well it's going to leave everyone "up shit creek".
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  6. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    All nice ideas ... but there is no turbine exhaust. The turbine is a steam turbine, and the final stages of the turbine are well below atmospheric pressure, after the final stage of the turbine the steam, at now below atmospheric pressure and less than 100 degrees Farenheight, goes to a condenser which is also a heat exchanger ... using sea water flowing thru tubes on one side and the other side is where the steam condenses into water, at way below atmospheric pressure, its a pretty good vacuum inside the condenser, 29 inches or more of mercury, an absolute vacuum being around 30 or thereabouts inches of mercury. Bottom line, no steam exhaust to atmosphere, that would be far, far, far less efficient in terms of getting every bit of energy out of the live steam as possible. Also, just to let you know ... in a pressurized water reactor, the water that boils to steam is not the water that goes thru the reactor core and is routinely checked and has no radioactive particles.

    Pete
     
  7. The Great Zorg

    The Great Zorg Gold Meritorious Patron

    Canada has the unenviable distiction of being the nation with the world's first run away nuclear reactor; in 1952. What was learned from that near disaster and much more research was incorperated into the CANDU fast breeder reactor, one of the safest (and most dangerous) reactors in the world. :yes:

    This research and isotope producing site supplies 1/3 of the world's medical isotopes. Not bad for a handfull of radioactive Canucks, eh?

    Interesting shit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk_River_Laboratories
    http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cnf_sectionD.htm#x
     
  8. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

  9. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    I guess I should modify my list so that ANYTHING that is vented must pass through the Executive Suites. Also, the cited site is in Central Australia well away from any available sea-water.

    I should also add an underground shuttle train to take staff from quarters to work. This would have an inbuilt safety mode of auto-reverse and take-you-back-home if there were a critical event, along with appropriate blast doors. The idea is to operate it like an oil rig such that staff are there for three months at a time.

    Breeder reactors ultimately produce weaponry materials. In a world that has gotten over the Cold War and is hopefully getting past the MAD (Mutally Assured Destruction) mentality, I would like to see all such reactors decommissioned as quickly as possible.

    The way the u.s. has been carelessly throwing DUWs around Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm wondering how long it will take before someone in the International Community orders the u.s. to go back and clean up the mess they've made.
     
  10. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    ALL civillian reactors are breeder reactors

    ALL civillian pressurized water reactors are breeders. It works like this ... the useful isotopes of Uranium are U233 and U235. By useful I mean fissionable. There is virtually no 233, and there is about .7% 235. The rest is isotope 238. Because all of these isotopes are 100% identical CHEMICALLY, the only difference is weight, and that is a very slight difference. In order to make reactor fuel, the Uranium must be enriched. The enrichment process is very difficult because the only property available to separate out the isotopes is the slight difference in weight. Uranium is a heavy metal with a very high melting point and a much higher boiling point, and, in order to separate out the 235, it must be a gas. The answer is to convert the Uranium to a compound that is gaseous at temperatures reasonable enough to work with. That compound is Uranium hexafluoride, or UF6. UF6 is a highly corrosive gas. In order to work with that, a new compound had to be developed that would contain it. That compound or family of compounds are well known and in wide use today ... its called teflon.

    Anyways ... to make a Uranium bomb, the Uranium 235 has to be enriched up to around 97%. Navy reactors use Uranium 235 enriched to that percentage as well ... there simply is no room onboard a submarine for a reactor that uses the low grade fuel a civillian power plant uses, which is Uranium that is enriched to 1 to 2%, the balance being U238. U238 is also known as "depleted Uranium". It is a very heavy, dense metal with a high melting point. It is both chemically toxic to the human body as well as being an alpha particle emitter. Alpha particles, or helium nuclei, are the least penetrating, being stopped easily by a sheet of paper, but, they are the most damaging if ingested or breathed in. U238 has an extremely long half life, in the billions of years I believe. That means it is extremely persistent in the environment. It also means that its decay rate is pretty slow.

    Back to reactors and U238 ... U238 will absorb a neutron and become Neptunium, which converts almost immediately to Plutonium 239, which has a half life of 24,000 years and atomic number 94 and is a FAR better substance for nuclear weapons and is way, way, way easier to manufacture than U235. U235 is much better for a reactor because it is far easier to control. But the lower enriched fuel in a civillian plant, because of all the 238, will breed plutonium regardless. A civillian plant is brought up to full power over a period of weeks and is then operated for about a year and then requires a shutdown to refuel. Towards the end of life for a civillian reactor core, a significant percentage of the heat produced from the core is from the fissioning of plutonium. The greater the percentage of power derived from the plutonium, the less stable. Why is that????????? In order for a reactor to stay at power, each generation of neutrons must replace the previous generation. The fissioning of U235 produces a wide range of fission products, virtually the entire spectrum of elements, plus some neutrons which continue the chain reaction. Some of the isotopes produced in turn release neutrons. They are known as DELAYED neutrons. If the reactor is critical, it is critical on these delayed neutrons, giving a generation a 57 second time frame. This makes a U235 fueled reactor core controllable, whereas Plutonium is critical on PROMPT neutrons, also known as PROMPT CRITICALITY. In prompt criticality, the generation time is measured in microseconds. The smaller the fraction of delayed neutrons, the closer the core is to prompt criticality, and the less stable.

    There IS another way to go with breeder reactors ... U233 breeders that convert Thorium into Uranium 233 that has pretty much all of the advantages of 235. The separation of the 233 from Thorium can be done chemically, and the 233 can then be made into a reactor core that does NOT produce Plutonium. But for whatever reason this is a tech that although known about has never really been promoted or developed.

    Another thing not often heard about these days is the possibility of fusion reactors, which would fuse hydrogen into helium to produce power. What little is heard is about huge plants that would use a zillion lasers or the magnetic containment of plasma, etc. What you DON'T hear about is the so-called "cold" fusion, bubble fusion, etc. There HAS been some promising results, BUT ... these technologies would lead to cheap and plentiful power production that would tend to be DECENTRALIZED. That is the political side of it ... control. Any tech that would decentralize power production and reduce the price of a megawatt-hour, now traded at about 30 to 40 dollars and retailing for about 120 to 140 dollars to, say, a few cents or a few tens of cents ... would overturn the electrical power distribution industry, destroy most of the demand for crude oil, coal, and natural gas, and allow for economical desalinization of water and therefore as much food production as needed ... the powers that be would definitely have a vested interest in supressing that technology until they could figure out a way to control it in their own best interests.

    Pete
     
  11. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Pete,

    Thanks for this factual account of the materials-related factors in the nuclear industry. The requirement for central control is an important unspoken issue. At some future time, cheap clean power will be more readily available to the consumer and control will be shifted to operate in a different area - maybe information, maybe regulation. Hopefully co-operative control will appear eventually. The internet is a model for that.
     
  12. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    If "ALL" reactors are breeders, what's the difference with the Japanese ones and iodine? Yes. I'm willing to admit there are things I don't know.

    I am of the opinion that the Thorium approach has never been embraced because of the absence of Plutonium in a WMD-esque world.

    [SARCASM]
    How dare you mention cold fusion. It has been proven beyond all doubt by the Religion of Science to be completely impossible.
    [/SARCASM]
     
  13. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    Heinlein conceived a character named Daniel Shipstone who discovered a way to build a safe reactor that was installed into each person's house. The reason that "Shipstone" became a power monopoly was because assembling or disassembling one of these reactors was extremely dangerous and only he knew how to do it.

    Arther C. Clarke also suggested that in the future the prime form of currency would be the MegaWattHour.
     
  14. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Cold fusion is being researched busily by about a dozen centres including Stanford Research Institute and the US Navy. The process is not entirely reproducible because of various factors including pre-doping of the palladium electrodes with deuterium. When it works, it works very well without any 'fallout' since the deuterium fuses to helium and the palladium is not consumed and is recyclable.

    But as you so rightly put it, how dare I mention this at all - I shall go wash my mouth out with soap.
     
  15. The Great Zorg

    The Great Zorg Gold Meritorious Patron

    "Cold fusion" is not "cold"... it is just not anywhere near the thousand degrees or so operating temperature of the Uranium reactors. It is still "hot' and still being worked on from what I understand. :confused2:

    Someone will figure out the process and try and capitalize on it. We should all be listening for that announcement, it may come and go rather quickly, we being the civilization that we are. :unsure: :yes:

    Commenting on the Thorium Reactor; how much readily available thorium is there in the earth that can be mined and processed? Little from what I understand, so it would have to be produced. Now how much $$$$$ is required for a thorium generator? Where's the savings? I'm just saying that when there's money to be made, someone will usually try to concoct something to generate it.
     
  16. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Thorium - cheap clean safe

    "A thorium fuel cycle offers several potential advantages over a uranium fuel cycle including much greater abundance on Earth, superior physical and nuclear properties of the fuel, enhanced proliferation resistance, and reduced nuclear waste production. Nobel laureate Carlo Rubbia at CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research), has worked on developing the use of thorium as a cheap, clean and safe alternative to uranium in reactors. Rubbia states that a tonne of thorium can produce as much energy as 200 tonnes of uranium, or 3,500,000 tonnes of coal." Wiki ('Thorium')

    hmm 'cheap clean safe' those words aren't immediately inspiring these days
     
  17. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    http://sydneypeakoil.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=748

    Considering that the Australian "government" is giving away all our coal and gas to China whilst charging local consumers an arm and a leg, and that they are selling our Uranium too cheaply as well, I figure that if Thorium gets a grip those same idiots will invite the multinationals in to strip us of all of it.

    From what I do understand of Thorium, there has been a small scale design intended for domestic (one per home) use. The primary safety feature of the unit was that if it started to overheat, a key component melted which caused the entire system to shut down.
     
  18. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    What is the source of the Helium?
     
  19. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Quote:
    "What is the source of the Helium?"

    D+D --> He (that is the fusion reaction)

    D is deuterium, the isotope of hydrogen which is (one proton plus one neutron). Helium is two protons plus two neutrons.
    This occurs in the crystal lattice of the palladium metal electrode immersed in heavy water (D2O).
     
  20. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    Thank you. Not having studied anything about Cold Fusion, I was under the impression it was an additional ingredient but, yes, with the education that I have had, I should have figured it out myself.