I'm an Ex Scn and Atheist - How many atheists are here at the board?

[Anonycat]

Sometimes I wonder for hours, about how much time I've wasted being introspective.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Is this why you are mistrustful of science?

This is very interesting. I'd actually never heard of the theory of 'tired light.'

Although most scientists apparently dismiss the idea, as it doesn't fit with observation, there are some still investigating it. I guess if they discover enough evidence we will need to rethink the age of the universe.

On that lecture I have provided, Lawrence says the universe is 13.72 billion years old. Wiki now lists it at 13.79. I recall another different figure entirely, so these things are constantly being revised.

Scientists are not immune. Ideally, they should be, but they are people. They sometimes lie, they sometimes fudge their data and they sometimes cling to bad ideas. In that lecture, they mention an astronomer, I think Kepler, who fudged his data. It is very much against the ideals of science to do this, but we are all flawed.

Arp banished, but not redshift anomalies

Several years ago, H. Arp, a noted American astronomer, moved to Europe to continue his research because, in part, of the hostility of American astronomers to his discoveries. The problem was (and still is) that Arp found galaxies that seem to be physically interacting and, therefore, at the same distance from earth, but yet have radically different or "discordant" redshifts. Since redshifts are supposed to be a measure of distance from the earth, an anomaly comes into focus. This anomaly; that is, the credibility of the redshift distance scale, challenges the ideas of an expanding universe and the Big Bang itself.

Freed from the shackles of American scientific correctness, Arp continues to find embarrassing facts about the cosmos. For example, take galaxies NGC 450 and UGC 807, with redshifts of 1863 and 11600 km/s respectively:



"Six lines of evidence are presented showing that the two discordant redshift galaxies are interacting. One would have to invoke an enormous conspiracy of galaxies to avoid this conclusion. Yet, if accepted, this case alone brings into question the interpretation of cosmological red-shift for all galaxies."

(Moles, M., et al, including Arp; "Testing for Interaction between the Galaxies NGC 450 and UGC 807," Astrophysical Journal, 432:135, 1994.)

But discordant redshifts are not limited to distant galaxies.



"In the Milky Way, the so-called "K-effect" shows that hot, young stars seem to be exploding away from us in every direction (i.e., they have an excess redshift right here in our own galaxy). If this had been heeded when first discovered, the expansion of the universe might never have been promulgated."

(Arp, H.; "Companion Galaxies: A Test of the Assumption that Velocities Can Be Inferred from Redshifts," Astrophysical Journal, 430:74, 1994.)

Both of the above quotations are from abstracts written by T. Van Flandern in his Meta Research Bulletin, 3:51 and 3:40, 1994, respectively.

The Doppler Effect, described in terms of redshifts, derives from an experiment performed in the 1840s. Christian Doppler staged an experiment with a band of musicians on a moving train, while others with perfect pitch stood by and listened. The notes were higher when the train approached and lower as it departed. Also the faster the train traveled the greater the pitch shifted. This understanding has been applied to the light emitted by objects in the Universe. If the object is moving towards us the spectral lines will be blueshifted, while those moving away are redshifted.
All quasars are redshifted. According to accepted interpretations, quasars are believed to be the fastest and farthest objects. However, a number of observations indicate that this velocity and distance interpretation is flawed. In fact, redshifts have never been fully proven (i.e., quantified) to represent what they are believed to portray.

The Doppler Effect involves both wave and particle viewpoints, and therefore, magnetic fields or electrical discharges also play a role. However, when the magnetic field is considered the effects of boundary conditions (i.e., plasma layers, etc.) are often neglected. Magnetic fields themselves are also usually not considered in order to simplify a hypothesis. In short, the Doppler Effect as it is usually interpreted may be more on the level of science fiction in some cases.

These incomplete perspectives could account for the apparent superluminal (faster than light) motions, and what are called discordant or non-cosmological redshifts in some objects. Helical or "handed" fields or materials (chirowaveguides) are known to create two different redshifts, even when the object and observer are at rest relative to each other. The Field-dynamical Model accelerates and ejects helical plasma layers, and therefore, could easily produce what are called discordant redshifts.

Quasars have been a mystery since their discovery. Immense energy is packed into a relatively small object that may actually be the energy cores of recently born galaxies. Approximately double the size of our solar system, they emit hundreds of times more energy than an entire galaxy. Quasars appear to move at enormous, often superluminal, speeds when the standard interpretation of redshifts is considered. According to relativity theory nothing should travel faster than the speed of light, and therefore, the apparent superluminal -- faster than light -- speeds of some objects alone brings into question the standard interpretation of redshifts.

Meanwhile, quasars appear to be the result of interactions between galaxies. The apparent distance of quasars may be illusionary, and they could be nearby. In fact, a good deal of evidence demonstrates that redshifts cannot be trusted as indicators of distance when it comes to quasars. In Grand Unified Theory most or all radio galaxies are quasars that are not seen pole-on. Therefore, quasars, and at least some galaxies, are revealing a more complete understanding of active galactic nuclei (AGN) and their activity, which includes non-cosmological redshifts, and interstellar and intergalactic fields.

I don't mistrust science, as much as I think it is entrenched in ideas to the point it refuses to look into alternatives that call into question it's beliefs. And by science I mean scientists. Above is an example - preventing Arp from having telescope time to prove or disprove his theory. That's why I say there's inertia in the scientific community to be overcome for any that have ideas contrary to established "fact"

Yes, Hubbard railed against the same thing, but he was trying to foist his unproven hypnotic therapy (Dianetics) off as the latest science of the mind, and you could easily make the point that I am espousing his concepts unexamined, due to my contamination due to being in Scientology for 40+ years. And perhaps that is your theory why I am open to paranormal stuff. Hell, I had esp stuff, a past life recall, exteriorization prior to Scientology so I was ripe for a study that could explain - amplify those areas in my life. And I found Scientology. And found it wasn't what it claimed to be.

So these things stand out to me. When they are poo pooed I find myself on their side (assuming their ideas aren't obviously crackpot) or at least willing to look at them. And so I keep looking, hoping to find an answer.

By the way - thanks for the video. It is helping me understand the something from nothing concept nature of the big bang.

I have to finish the video lecture, but looking at the animation of the (fields) energy popping in and out of the space inside a proton between the quarks has the resemblance of waves, and I guess waves between dimensions? They appear, they disappear - somehow it looks familiar. Take a look at 20:45 they account for 90 % of the mass of the proton.

[video=youtube;7ImvlS8PLIo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo[/video]

EDIT - just so you don't think I am prejudiced - see this: Mimsey

What's the issue about the redshifts?

NGC 4319 has a redshift (the fractional amount that observed wavelengths of spectral lines in a galaxy are shifted relative to the wavelengths at rest, (lobs - l rest) / lrest ) of 0.00468, while Mrk 205 has a redshift of 0.071. If redshifts imply distance, as almost all astronomers believe, then Mrk 205 is almost 15 times farther away than NGC 4319.

Mrk 205 is projected in the sky within the spiral arms of NGC 4319. In 1971 Halton Arp, who compiled an important catalog of peculiar galaxies called the Arp Catalog, wondered if this is not just a chance superposition, but rather evidence that the quasar-like galaxy really lies within NGC 4319. He found support for this view in the filamentary structure between the two objects.

If this were so, then redshifts would not be distance indicators in all cases. Needless to say it was a radical suggestion that, if true, would have upset some of the fundamental tenets of cosmology. It stirred up a lot of controversy about the meaning of redshifts and whether they were "cosmological," that is, due to the universal expansion, in all cases. Arp found numerous other examples of quasars near galaxies, although few as dramatic as this one.

In the view of most astronomers, the juxtapositions are just due to chance. The filamentary connection became less convincing as better images became available. John Bahcall and collaborators made a noteworthy contribution when they showed that NGC 4319 absorbs some of the light from Mrk 205, just as expected if NGC 4319 is projected in front of Mrk 205 (Astrophysical Journal 1992). In time, many quasars were found to lie in galaxies with exactly the same redshift, providing powerful evidence that quasars are an event that occurs in the nucleus of galaxies.

Today the redshift controversy has almost faded from view. Only a few astronomers still think there is reasonable evidence for noncosmological redshifts; a recent summary making their case was published by Geoffrey Burbidge (Publications of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific 2001). The vast majority of astronomers think that the evidence is overwhelming that redshifts show distances to objects in the expanding universe.

 

[TrevAnon]

I'll just leave this here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

 

[Helena Handbasket]

... All I can say is all religion is based on made up lies presented as facts with pathetic promises that can not be proven such as going to heaven after you die. ...

I believe we all go to the Holy Implant Center after we die where we get a forgetter and obediance implant then are sent back to Earth to reincarnate. Except of course for those of us who are smart enough to refuse to go.

Helena

 

[Helena Handbasket]

My family was Christian They all believed in evolution. Many Christian churches accept it.

The problem with creation vs. evolution is you can always ask who created evolution? It's a question you can't answer.

Helena

 

[Helena Handbasket]

In principal someone could be a communist and allow religious freedom, although in practice it has never happened and is not likely to.

I'm not so sure. Communism promotes the communist leadership as THE authority, and recognizing other authorities, even simply religious ones, could not be tolerated.

Helena

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Google returns this definition of agnostic:

A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

I would have called myself agnostic before I saw this definition, but now I'm not too sure. I'm certainly NOT a believer, but to say that nothing can ever be known of the existence of a 'supreme being or intelligence' seems a little arrogant to me. Big Bang theory or not, the universe is still practically a complete mystery what with black hole singularities and dark matter etc., so, just in case there is a million to one chance of the existence of a SB, I'll keep the door open just a tiny crack.

Afterlife insurance?

Helena, being snarky

 

[strativarius]

Afterlife insurance?

Helena, being snarky

Well no, I wasn't hedging my bets on an afterlife HH since no one (give or take a few tabloid newspaper publicity-seekers) has ever given a realistic account of their so-called past lives. I mean more like the idea that there might be a form of intelligence that exists far beyond what we currently understand to be intelligence. Who knows for sure? That's all I'm saying.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Writers can write amazing stories, but that doesn't mean we should look to those stories to predict the future or explain how reality works.

I believe in the Cholly Barman school of education, where fact is dressed up by putting an interesting story around it, so people will read it. I've written several Cholly Barman stories.

Helena

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Well no, I wasn't hedging my bets on an afterlife HH since no one (give or take a few tabloid newspaper publicity-seekers) has ever given a realistic account of their so-called past lives. I mean more like the idea that there might be a form of intelligence that exists far beyond what we currently understand to be intelligence. Who knows for sure? That's all I'm saying.

What would a "realistic account" consist of? I remember details from my last 5 lifetimes and can describe them. (The last 100 years have really been a bitch.)

Helena

 

[strativarius]

What would a "realistic account" consist of? I remember details from my last 5 lifetimes and can describe them. (The last 100 years have really been a bitch.)

Helena

I love you to bits HH, but when you say stuff like that I really do despair. Why is it that you can 'remember' these details, and the ordinary person in the street has no recollection at all of having lived before?

 

[Hypatia]

I love you to bits HH, but when you say stuff like that I really do despair. Why is it that you can 'remember' these details, and the ordinary person in the street has no recollection at all of having lived before?

I've met a few - pretty rare but not unheard of. More likely with people from India.

 

[strativarius]

I've met a few - pretty rare but not unheard of. More likely with people from India.

I think it's possible that there may be some religious bias in that direction in India.

My point is that if it were a reality, people would be discussing their previous incarnations over the dinner table, but that just doesn't happen.

What would be the point of having lived before if one couldn't reap the benefit of a previous existence in the current one? Besides, in my case, growing up, especially my teens, was a f'ing nightmare, and I certainly don't want to go through that shit all over again!

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I think it's possible that there may be some religious bias in that direction in India.

My point is that if it were a reality, people would be discussing their previous incarnations over the dinner table, but that just doesn't happen.

What would be the point of having lived before if one couldn't reap the benefit of a previous existence in the current one? Besides, in my case, growing up, especially my teens, was a f'ing nightmare, and I certainly don't want to go through that shit all over again!

Good question. I don't really want to get into the question of what I believe about reincarnation, not least because I'm far from sure, but I have sometimes met people for the first time whom I nevertheless felt I'd known for years and it has seemed to me that I probably knew them in a previous lifetime.

I will say also that like you, I don't like the idea of "going through that shit" (of growing up) again. I had a collision with a lamppost on an icy day when I was 11 and as a consequence had to go through secondary school with a broken front tooth, which didn't do much for my teenage self-confidence.

BTW, I went to see David Icke speak in the mid-90s, and he said that when he saw the virulently anti-Catholic Ian Paisley on TV, the thought that came to him was; "He was a pope!"

 

[strativarius]

Good question. I don't really want to get into the question of what I believe about reincarnation, not least because I'm far from sure, but I have sometimes met people for the first time whom I nevertheless felt I'd known for years and it has seemed to me that I probably knew them in a previous lifetime.

I will say also that like you, I don't like the idea of "coming back" as I think life on this Earth plane is (mostly?) hard.

BTW, I went to see David Icke speak in the mid-90s, and he said that when he saw the virulently anti-Catholic Ian Paisley on TV, the thought that came to him was; "He was a pope!"

I suppose it really boils down to whether you believe in ghosts or not, after all, what is a disembodied spirit if not a ghost? As for myself, I simply don't believe in them. When I was a scientologists I did, but that was simply 'faith'.

As for David Icke, he needs to be locked up IMO. OK, maybe not locked up, but...

 

[Bill]

Google returns this definition of agnostic:

A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

I would have called myself agnostic before I saw this definition, but now I'm not too sure. I'm certainly NOT a believer, but to say that nothing can ever be known of the existence of a 'supreme being or intelligence' seems a little arrogant to me. Big Bang theory or not, the universe is still practically a complete mystery what with black hole singularities and dark matter etc., so, just in case there is a million to one chance of the existence of a SB, I'll keep the door open just a tiny crack.

"I used to be an agnostic but now I'm not sure..."
There's a joke here somewhere.

 

[strativarius]

"I used to be an agnostic but now I'm not sure..."
There's a joke here somewhere.

Possibly, but methinks it needs a little more work on it yet.

Edit: No, you're quite right, I just looked up some 'agnostic jokes', and that one's right there just as I wrote it. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I should have thought about what I was writing a little more before clicking the 'post' button.

 

[lotus]

I believe we all go to the Holy Implant Center after we die where we get a forgetter and obediance implant then are sent back to Earth to reincarnate. Except of course for those of us who are smart enough to refuse to go.

Helena

Good lord Helena!

And who is supposed to ""implant'' those ''forgetters and obediance'' implants????
I mean Who when, How and where????

Apart from LRH you are the only person who I know of of have such certitude of such pseudo-events.

concerning LRH he had been poud to appear ''mental'' to be a pathological liar by a judge and a narcissist paranoid from people appointed in his inner circle....

Thus..to my knowledge..you are the only other person (out of cult enforced indoctrination) to believe in this..

Oups..wait...I forgot Captain Robertson...who was too found to be a lunatic weirdo fruitcake...

 

[Hypatia]

I think it's possible that there may be some religious bias in that direction in India.

My point is that if it were a reality, people would be discussing their previous incarnations over the dinner table, but that just doesn't happen.

What would be the point of having lived before if one couldn't reap the benefit of a previous existence in the current one? Besides, in my case, growing up, especially my teens, was a f'ing nightmare, and I certainly don't want to go through that shit all over again!

I think the supposition is that people forget. But I did think of some other examples - obviously NO proof- but there're been tales of kids who said they remembered.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

I suppose it really boils down to whether you believe in ghosts or not, after all, what is a disembodied spirit if not a ghost? As for myself, I simply don't believe in them. When I was a scientologists I did, but that was simply 'faith'.

As for David Icke, he needs to be locked up IMO. OK, maybe not locked up, but...

Or just remove a few letters from his name.