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Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
@Gib My 2 cents opinion:

In ancient times, the royalty/oligarchy of a nation considered a national religion as one of their major responsibilities to enforce on their mainly agricultural population who were mostly illiterate peasants.

One of the reasons was teaching "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" etc.
The claimed authority for these teachings was the god(s).

(Then, we eventually achieved legal "separation of church and state" which is another story.)

A lot of continued belief, over generations, is mostly due to early childhood mental development (indoctrination) and learning how to "tap-dance" around contradictions (apologetics).

Just using the term "rhetoric" is a bit too simplistic.
Please consider other items in addition to rhetoric.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
to answer your question "Do you also believe Christianity is rhetoric" ?

yep, I do.

And so do others:

https://blog.emergingscholars.org/2...ication-the-rhetoric-of-christian-persuasion/

"One of the unexpected resources that Guinness holds up as a model for Christians who want to communicate winsomely is the tradition of classical rhetoric formulated by Greek and Roman writers such as Aristotle and Cicero. Though not the central focus of Fool’s Talk, this strand jumped out to me since I am in the process of writing a book on the use of rhetoric in English puritan writing of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. While my research is largely historical in focus, it touches on some of the same questions that Guinness raises as relevant to Christian communicators today."

"Aristotle’s Art of Rhetoric identifies three key dimensions of persuasion—logos (appeal to reason), pathos (appeal to emotion), and ethos (the perceived credibility of the speaker). For some classical rhetoricians (though not all), the true orator had to be sincere in order to present a credible ethos, and Guinness references this understanding of rhetorical ethos: “The first and indispensable requirement for classical rhetoric had always been ethos, the moral character of a speaker that supported the power of his logos, his rational argument.”[3] For Guinness, this underlines the need for those who represent Christ to have an integrity that gives credibility to their words, a credibility that the Church in its various expressions has sometimes sadly lacked."
Why thank you Gibby...

Now we have you in the same boat as L. Ron Hubbard.

This boat, our boat, is still accepting new sailors...

Personally I see faith as something more than rhetoric; after all, of the first thirty five Popes only one died a natural death
 

Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
[bcolor=rgb(255, 255, 255)]In the book Trances People Live the author very clearly explains his belief that he has overcome the transference issue but on this matter his argument is to me unconvincing.
[/bcolor]
[bcolor=rgb(255, 255, 255)]In his YT video "The End of the Game" , SW describes the trance-ference / counter- trance-ference situation (from 1:25:15 to 1:28:17) and follows on with the description of what is (should be) a true teacher (up to 1:30:41).[/bcolor]
[bcolor=rgb(255, 255, 255)][/bcolor]
 

phenomanon

Canyon
@Gib My 2 cents opinion:

In ancient times, the royalty/oligarchy of a nation considered a national religion as one of their major responsibilities to enforce on their mainly agricultural population who were mostly illiterate peasants.

One of the reasons was teaching "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" etc.
The claimed authority for these teachings was the god(s).

(Then, we eventually achieved legal "separation of church and state" which is another story.)

A lot of continued belief, over generations, is mostly due to early childhood mental development (indoctrination) and learning how to "tap-dance" around contradictions (apologetics).

Just using the term "rhetoric" is a bit too simplistic.
Please consider other items in addition to rhetoric.
Hypnosis is a good word to use.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
@Gib My 2 cents opinion:

In ancient times, the royalty/oligarchy of a nation considered a national religion as one of their major responsibilities to enforce on their mainly agricultural population who were mostly illiterate peasants.

One of the reasons was teaching "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" etc.
The claimed authority for these teachings was the god(s).

(Then, we eventually achieved legal "separation of church and state" which is another story.)

A lot of continued belief, over generations, is mostly due to early childhood mental development (indoctrination) and learning how to "tap-dance" around contradictions (apologetics).

Just using the term "rhetoric" is a bit too simplistic.
Please consider other items in addition to rhetoric.
I think that a lot of important work on psychology should be considered that came after the Greeks described rhetoric. We have the terrific stuff Robert Cialdini identified in his book Influence, the eight criteria for thought reform by Robert Jay Lifton, the essential A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance by Leon Festinger, Age of Propaganda and much more.

Trauma bonding and attachment theory are important and Alexandra Stein described how these are part of cults in Terror, Love and Brainwashing as did Janja Lalich in Take Back Your Life. Steve Hassan made his own take on it with the BITE model from Freedom of Mind.

Scientology and other cults use many things to influence people and their relationships and behavior and a lot of subjects are involved in that. I think I'm Behave Robert Sapolsky explained how human behavior is complicated and involves understanding brain structures, neurotransmitters and hormones, genes and proteins, environmental factors and education and many psychological, social and evolutionary influences.

He explained that to understand weather you could examine a cloud in fine detail but not understand weather because weather has systemic causation - lots of things come together to make weather and understanding the chemistry of water or a cloud or understanding lightning or ice or snow isn't understanding weather. Scientology is similar in that it requires knowing information from many sources and subjects in my opinion to understand Scientology, you have rhetoric, hypnosis, many aspects of psychology and memory and on and on.

If you are not willing to look at many subjects to take apart Scientology it is extremely unlikely you are going to understand it. If I was only willing to study lakes or clouds or water molecules or deserts it is extremely unlikely that I would understand weather.

There is no substitute for putting in the work, and a lot of it at that.
 
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mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
@Gib My 2 cents opinion:

In ancient times, the royalty/oligarchy of a nation considered a national religion as one of their major responsibilities to enforce on their mainly agricultural population who were mostly illiterate peasants.

One of the reasons was teaching "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" etc.
The claimed authority for these teachings was the god(s).

(Then, we eventually achieved legal "separation of church and state" which is another story.)

A lot of continued belief, over generations, is mostly due to early childhood mental development (indoctrination) and learning how to "tap-dance" around contradictions (apologetics).

Just using the term "rhetoric" is a bit too simplistic.
Please consider other items in addition to rhetoric.
You are going back a long way. But how people have been influenced in different circumstances is the best evidence that we have for how people can be influenced.

So, it all matters.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Et tu Brute?
I posted a great video by critical thinking expert Richard Paul. Paul described how their are three classes of thinkers ( He has others but here introduces three ) regarding knowledge. He described the vulgar thinker that doesn't really know a subject but knows some slogans like a Marxist who knows nothing about Marx or social theory or politics or history in general but has embraced a few slogans and may live and die for his understanding of Marxism. A sophistic (like sophist) thinker may know six volumes of Das Kapital by heart and can defend them against criticism but doesn't accept any information that contradicts his understanding of Marxism. His mind is closed and he doesn't see anything else. A critical thinker can see where his subject is complimented or further explained or strengthened by other subjects and can accept criticism of his subject and see where it needs to be elaborated or improved.

You really cannot graduate from sophistic thinking if you see one subject as not needing the understanding of other subjects to compliment it. What subject is complete and entirely valid with no need for improvement or critique ?

I will post a link to the video

 
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mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
The French courts ruled that CoS was committing fraud even when selling and delivering training and auditing.

????????????????????


I've examined the "Affirmations" and will again.

These are not published CoS materials
Scientology in my opinion cannot be understood if you only examine Scientology using Scientology.

I have a post on the use of different kinds of reason,thinking and belief regarding a video by critical thinking expert Richard Paul.

Scientology versus Critical Thinking - Extreme Contrasts

Richard Paul and Linda Elder created the Paul-Elder critical thinking model. I have posted this before but will share it here again and discuss a specific lecture regarding critical thinking by Richard Paul that is essential in my opinion to fully understand the model and it lends itself to a comparison and contrast to Scientology.


After I describe the lecture and it's content I want to focus on the differences between the Paul-Elder model and Scientology because it's almost a perfect opposite to Scientology. You will easily see this if you are familiar with Scientology, particularly if you spent decades in Scientology as I did. Understanding a sound model of critical thinking like this well immediately exposes Scientology as pseudoscience and an intellectual sham. The difference is night and day.


Paul-Elder Critical Thinking Framework


Critical thinking is that mode of thinking – about any subject, content, or problem — in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them. (Paul and Elder, 2001). The Paul-Elder framework has three components:
The elements of thought (reasoning)
The intellectual standards that should be applied to the elements of reasoning
The intellectual traits associated with a cultivated critical thinker that result from the consistent and disciplined application of the intellectual standards to the elements of thought


According to Paul and Elder (1997), there are two essential dimensions of thinking that students need to master in order to learn how to upgrade their thinking. They need to be able to identify the "parts" of their thinking, and they need to be able to assess their use of these parts of thinking.

ELEMENTS OF THOUGHT (REASONING)
The "parts" or elements of thinking are as follows:
All reasoning has a purpose
All reasoning is an attempt to figure something out, to settle some question, to solve some problem
All reasoning is based on assumptions
All reasoning is done from some point of view
All reasoning is based on data, information and evidence
All reasoning is expressed through, and shaped by, concepts and ideas
All reasoning contains inferences or interpretations by which we draw conclusions and give meaning to data
All reasoning leads somewhere or has implications and consequences


UNIVERSAL INTELLECTUAL STANDARDS
The intellectual standards that are to these elements are used to determine the quality of reasoning. Good critical thinking requires having a command of these standards. According to Paul and Elder (1997 ,2006), the ultimate goal is for the standards of reasoning to become infused in all thinking so as to become the guide to better and better reasoning. The intellectual standards include:
Clarity
Could you elaborate?
Could you illustrate what you mean?
Could you give me an example?
Accuracy
How could we check on that?
How could we find out if that is true?
How could we verify or test that?
Precision
Could you be more specific?
Could you give me more details?
Could you be more exact?
Relevance
How does that relate to the problem?
How does that bear on the question?
How does that help us with the issue?
Depth
What factors make this difficult?
What are some of the complexities of this question?
What are some of the difficulties we need to deal with?
Breadth
Do we need to look at this from another perspective?
Do we need to consider another point of view?
Do we need to look at this in other ways?
Logic
Does all of this make sense together?
Does your first paragraph fit in with your last one?
Does what you say follow from the evidence?
Significance
Is this the most important problem to consider?
Is this the central idea to focus on?
Which of these facts are most important?
Fairness
Is my thinking justifiable in context?
Am I taking into account the thinking of others?
Is my purpose fair given the situation?
Am I using my concepts in keeping with educated usage, or am I distorting them to get what I want?
INTELLECTUAL TRAITS
Consistent application of the standards of thinking to the elements of thinking result in the development of intellectual traits of:
Intellectual Humility
Intellectual Courage
Intellectual Empathy
Intellectual Autonomy
Intellectual Integrity
Intellectual Perseverance
Confidence in Reason
Fair-mindedness

CHARACTERISTICS OF A WELL-CULTIVATED CRITICAL THINKER
Habitual utilization of the intellectual traits produce a well-cultivated critical thinker who is able to:
Raise vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely
Gather and assess relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively
Come to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;


Think open-mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
Communicate effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems
Paul, R. and Elder, L. (2010). The Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking Concepts and Tools. Dillon Beach: Foundation for Critical Thinking Press.

Richard Paul pointed out many relevant issues regarding critical thinking in his lectures. One issue he dealt with is different degrees of understanding of issues.
One lecture in particular is worth serious examination.


It's on YouTube with the Title Prove: Why Intellectual Standards ? Why Teach For Them ?
From CriticalThinkingOrg published on April 23, 2015 with a length of fifty five minutes and nineteen seconds. This post addresses the content of that lecture.

He described sophisticate believers and vulgar believers. He said vulgar believers really don't understand the logic of the content, they don't understand the ideology.

He pointed out that a person could be what he called a vulgar believer. He gave the example of a person who claims to be a Marxist who has a handful of slogans like "seize the means of production, power to the people, down with the bourgeois" and so on. The person never read Marx or any related authors or contemporaries of Marx. The person doesn't understand ANY of the ideas of Marx besides these slogans in the barest manner possible. They don't understand the terms in the subject or anything else. They may be willing to die for Marx or Marxism but don't understand anything about it.

He described sophisticate believers and vulgar believers. He said vulgar believers really don't understand the logic of the content, they don't understand the ideology.

He said a step up from a vulgar believer regarding a subject is a sophisticate believer. The sophisticate believer understands the ideas in a subject far more than the vulgar believer. But they are predisposed to not understand how the subject they are aware of can be critiqued by other systems and interacts with subjects outside the one subject they defend. He gave the test that they don't see the flaws and weaknesses in their system and the answers that other systems can give to incorporate them and improve their system.

They are aware of no flaws in their system. They see no other system as necessary. He described them as being able to recite six volumes of very narrow minded reasoning that never entertains another system. Crucially they try to understand the system outside their own system to negate it and defend their own system. He defined this as apologetics and said you ought to apologize for it.


This is worth strong emphasis. He described it as trying to show everyone why you are right and everyone else is wrong all the time.

He described the challenge of critical thinking as trying to get students to not be vulgar believers or sophisticate believers.


Huh ? The examples with this are plentiful in life. It's a defining characteristic of cultic groups. If you have a philosophy or subject that is only seen as superior to and in conflict with all other subjects that is a huge red flag.


We have various extreme sects that take virtually any religious beliefs and refuse to give any subjects whether scientific or medical or of any other kind a chance to be used to be seen as legitimate also then you have a cult.


In all major religions you also have sects that do not reject all other subjects and get called moderate that are not cultic, so the approach to thinking and degree of control that a subject is enforced with determine a lot.


A sophisticate believer knows enough to attack other subjects, but not usually enough to understand them really as anything other than something to attack and degrade, not really a deep understanding.


Imagine that you see physics as superior to everything else. And you see chemistry and biology as worthless and inferior. And teaching and study as things to not learn because they are not physics.


You would be less capable in physics than you potentially could be obviously because study and teaching are essential to learning physics itself. Other subjects that involve human beings like psychology and influence and our biases and behavior affect ANY subject we interact with as they affect how we do and learn EVERYTHING.


A sophisticate believer has such poor understanding of how subjects can interact and help each other with being applied to each other that they really don't understand their own subject completely.


Richard Paul described a thinker that understands a subject as itself and how other subjects can interact and be used to evaluate a subject as a critical thinker. If you can look at physics and use the subject of critical thinking to see the strengths and weaknesses in physics you have an advantage. If you can use logic to look at the logic within physics and see what is what you are free to be objective and not just defend orthodox beliefs.


A subject that is too sacred to be observed through the lens of other subjects is immune from criticism and critical thinking. Whatever beliefs one holds of a religious or spiritual or philosophical nature that cannot be treated as anything besides sacred cannot be critically thought of.

I have also encountered the phenomenon of people believing in atheism or their idea of critical thinking (what Richard Paul would probably have called a pseudo critical thinker) or a physical science or political philosophy that also is seen as sacred and beyond criticism or evaluation by any other subjects. So, this is not limited to religion in any way.


I hope the three categories of vulgar believer, that really understands nothing and follows a few slogans to the sophisticate believer that understands a subject just as superior to others and might understand it from the inside better than the vulgar believer but not really fully to the critical believer who understands the subject they study and the content in the subject and that other subjects are worthwhile for analyzing the subject in question illustrate how approaches to subjects determine or prejudice understandings that are achieved.

Richard Paul also described indoctrination as producing people that just comply with feeding back what is told to people in indoctrination without even needing to really comprehend the subject or terms. He described indoctrination as producing no understanding of terms or a superficial understanding.

Richard Paul described content as something we produce by the reasoning mind, conceived and constructed by the reasoning mind and one hundred percent dependent on thinking.
People often say they have no time to foster thinking with the content they need to instruct people in. They are describing the rote memorization that is briefly used to just feed back information that is only fed back then forgotten.

In earlier systems like Bloom's taxonomy knowledge is meant to occur before evaluation. Richard Paul believes this is backwards and only results in brief memorization.

Thinking requires organization of information. All new ideas must fit the existing system of ideas and a mind must change its own content to adapt to needs.

Students must understand the logic of their thinking because it affects their ability to take on any content. To Paul the system in any subject isn't nature to the mind and so it takes discipline to take on the thinking required in any subject, it's difficult and not normal for people to seek the truth.

Paul sees his intellectual standards as naturally required for all thinking in all situations for all subjects, that is why they are universal. They are minimum criteria he feels are necessary.
We need clarity, accuracy, relevance, depth, breadth, precision, logic, significance and fairness in our thinking. Imagine presenting something that is unclear, inaccurate, irrelevant, shallow, too narrow minded, imprecise, illogical, insignificant and unfair. It would have no logical cohesion.
Reasoning is the attempt to figure something out in a way that displays the intellectual standards. They are natural criteria.

He feels the standards come from the logic of language, which requires clarity and accuracy, he emphasized the importance of understanding terms that apply to reasoning that are relevant.
He emphasized that most words must remain unchanging if we make a case for changing some words. He says words must be used carefully like indoctrination and training and education, they don't mean the same thing.


He says you must use words carefully to think clearly.

He said discipline requires a standard to conform to. Whether it is a sport or art or other discipline. He said you wouldn't understand a language if you had your own private language.
He described the logic of questions as also being a part of the origin of the logic of the standards. A legal question has standards from the law while a moral question has moral standards as the standards for examination.


He described questions of fact as having right and wrong answers and questions of reasoned judgement have a better and worse answer while questions of personal preference have a different answer possible for each person.


He quoted a description of math instruction today as being fraudulent. It is just getting people to plug numbers in equations with no further understanding.


He described the logic of historical reasoning as never occurring in instruction in history.
The logic of reality is the third as being the third component of the logic of the student.
He described the contrast between chemistry which consults the logic of reality and depends on it and astrology which doesn't. Astrology consults it's own unverifiable internal non-reality based system and seeks to maintain that system.


He described the ultimate question for a critical thinker as do you confirm your system to the logic of reality or do you conform reality to your system.


He said if reality isn't what you are trying to conform to your thinking will be deeply flawed.
He said if you try to conform your thinking to reality you are a critical believer. Whether Christian, mathematician, sociologist, American, or whatever. They understand they can make mistakes and the system can make a mistake and they can make a mistake within the system. The system can be falsifiable.


He said if students don't see something to discipline their reasoning to then they won't be critical thinkers. He described the difference between beliefs and knowledge. He said educators should work to get students that can achieve knowledge through their reasoning and that anyone can believe but belief doesn't require reasoning and understanding.


He described disciplines as being constructed by reasoning. He referred to disciplines like anthropology and sociology and biology. He said there are many questions which no discipline has yet answered. There are many questions which have not even been asked yet. He said education is concerned with developing the mind to be able to answer the questions.


He said it is only the uneducated mind that is impressed with how much is known, "the more you know the more you know you don't know" was his description. He said it takes reasoning and precise use of language to see that.


He described getting students to understand and apply the intellectual standards of critical thinking as a tremendous challenge. It's a paradigm shift.


He said this is a lifetime endeavor. He recommended looking up the terms for the standards in a good dictionary. He emphasized the differences between the standards and the interrelationships between the standards.


He said the logic of learning is the logic of somebody's thinking. He said in teaching you should get lots of questions. No questions means no understanding because if you understand something you see unanswered questions not addressed.


He described using questions to encourage students to think more broadly within disciplines and stretching the breadth of what students think of, bit by bit and very gradually.


He said this paradigm is resisted by people that deeply believe in the other paradigm of giving information that is fed back with a little critical thinking thrown in and that critical thinking cannot effectively be taught by people that don't practice it.


There are people that assume critical thinking is always there when it isn't at all. Their only standard is memorization of material and feeding it back.


That concludes my summing up of the lecture. I give it my absolute highest possible recommendation. It has more sound reason than EVERYTHING in Scientology. It truly exposes the stark difference between a real critical thinker and Ronald Hubbard. I believe everyone can benefit from seeing this video.


The work of Richard Paul in critical thinking is too notch in my opinion. I endorse it and feel his books are worth looking at.


Okay, now for my two cents. Veteran Scientologists will see many if not all my points coming, bear with me, I am going to try to cover all my bases.


First off the indoctrination in Scientology obviously encourages vulgar believers at first. You are instantly taught that your difficulties or confusions regarding study are always due to no contradictions or errors in the doctrine in Scientology but always due to fictional barriers to study.

You get doctrine with hundreds of contradictions and unclear terms, unclear and contradictory definitions as well. You have extensive Orwellian reversals. Not here euphemisms these words and phrases say the opposite of what they describe in Scientology, of what actually is done.
There are dozens and dozens of slogans in Scientology. They function as thought stopping cliches as Robert Jay Lifton described. The loaded language from his right criteria for thought reform serve as the language of non thought as Lifton put it. Exactly what you use to equip vulgar believers.

Long term Scientologists can achieve a degree of sophisticate belief as Richard Paul described it. It lacks the good cohesion believers in most other disciplines achieve because it has so many inconsistencies and lacks any logic of reality in many aspects. It has so many poorly defined terms and thousands of interconnected terms that all link one to another and another to form chains of hundreds of poorly and inconsistently defined terms that create a kind of fog of the mind.

The sophisticate believer level is really the highest level of thinking Scientology lends itself to. Scientology is presented as far superior to life itself. It's presented as being beyond criticism with criticism being automatically seen as irrefutable proof that the critic has hidden crimes of serious magnitude promoting all criticism. Doubt in Scientology is seen as a lower condition by Scientologists. Questions regarding doctrine are always interpreted as demonstrating something to address regarding the student having a deficiency in understanding or character.
The system is designed to defend itself preemptively by attacking all other systems.

It has a method to invalidate and counter all ideas that disagree with Scientology including study technology and false data stripping. Of course subjects that contradict Scientology like psychology are even attacked in the materials preparing the student before they start the false data stripping procedure. Numerous experts in politics, economics, psychiatry, theology and many other subjects are thoroughly attacked in Scientology doctrine to establish that as the only subject far, far above all others.


It's not an exaggeration to say criticism of Scientology is sacrilegious to Scientologists. It violates what Robert Jay Lifton described as the sacred science, a doctrine that is treated as entirely logical and scientific by believers but if any inconsistencies or failures in logic are brought up the doctrine is immediately treated as too sacred to be doubted.


Hubbard designed it as an extension of his identity and incredibly defensive of itself and always attacking all other systems. Not an inch of room for critical thinking there.


Recall - We need clarity, accuracy, relevance, depth, breadth, precision, logic, significance and fairness in our thinking. Imagine presenting something that is unclear, inaccurate, irrelevant, shallow, too narrow minded, imprecise, illogical, insignificant and unfair. It would have no logical cohesion.

Well Scientology lacks clarity, accuracy, relevance, depth, breadth, precision, logic, significance and fairness. It is unclear, inaccurate, irrelevant, shallow, too narrow minded, imprecise, illogical, insignificant and unfair. It has no logical cohesion.


Outsiders that do not believe in and practice Scientology cannot understand why people believe in it. In several blog posts on psychology I have taken on how Scientologists interpret mental and physical phenomena as evidence that Hubbard's doctrine is true. Lifton in his system, the eight criteria for thought reform, described it as mystical manipulation.


Several systems outside Scientology can interpret or explain weaknesses and inconsistencies in Scientology far better than anything in Scientology. Aspects of psychology address this and seeing principles and techniques in Scientology as being plagiarized from hypnosis is a use of that system or cultic studies to understand Scientology. But Scientology preemptively discredited everything and everyone else.


Really from a critical thinking standpoint Scientology is a total mess. Richard Paul would easily point out the lack of reality based beliefs in Scientology. Scientology requires members to conform reality to fit Hubbard's system.


Regarding the logic of language Hubbard inverts it. He used his own made up language jam packed with contradictions and inconsistencies and thought stopping cliches as Lifton called it, the language of non thought as he termed it.


Hubbard was always extremely impressed with his own mind and knowledge and impressed this attitude upon Scientologists. Arrogance is deadly to critical thinking.


As the materials in Scientology inspire questions on course the Scientology student rapidly learns questions lead to word clearing and so students learn to stifle all questions which nips critical thinking in the bud. No independent thinking in Scientology.


In Scientology Socratic questions have no place, Socratic debate has no place. Everything is authority and obedience based. That's it.


Really if we look at all the concepts Richard Paul brought up for good critical thinking regarding instruction and teaching and the reality of Scientology point by point the critical thinking model of Richard Paul exposes Scientology as pseudoscience and inadequate as a serious subject of any kind.


if I just understood and really applied the ideas from the video by Richard Paul I would have been effectively inoculated from Scientology.


I am sure other people can think of other points that this description exposes. Scientology is just jam packed with them.


I hope lots of people from all different backgrounds look at the critical thinking framework by Richard Paul and his videos and books. I hope to make it first nature for the rest of my life.
 

Gib

Crusader
@Gib My 2 cents opinion:

In ancient times, the royalty/oligarchy of a nation considered a national religion as one of their major responsibilities to enforce on their mainly agricultural population who were mostly illiterate peasants.

One of the reasons was teaching "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" etc.
The claimed authority for these teachings was the god(s).

(Then, we eventually achieved legal "separation of church and state" which is another story.)

A lot of continued belief, over generations, is mostly due to early childhood mental development (indoctrination) and learning how to "tap-dance" around contradictions (apologetics).

Just using the term "rhetoric" is a bit too simplistic.
Please consider other items in addition to rhetoric.
you should realize rhetoric, that is the concepts of ethos, pathos and logos, came before religion, before Jesus Christ or God concept.

There was no religion in ancient times of aristole and plato. That, religion, came later.
 

EZ Linus

Cleared Tomato
well said Leland.

I think, hypnosis is getting agreement, and that's what Hubbard did, just try to get agreement. And those that didn't agree were labeled PTS and/or SP. Those that were PTS and couldn't be handled to agree, why then labeled SP. Those that ere handled, why they then agreed.

Here is a refernce:

https://hypnosistrainingacademy.com/4-covert-agreement-tactics-to-set-a-yes-mood-in-hypnosis/

"If you can’t get your subject to agree with you, hypnosis doesn’t happen… period!"

But, I'd call hypnosis rhetoric, the art of persuasion, or getting agreement.

Hubbard's ARC triangle of ARC= Understanding, Hubbard said communication was the most important point. But, in actuality, Hubbard tried to get everybody to agree. The R part of the ARC triangle, or reality = agreement.

And if you didn't agree or change your mind, then PTS to handle, and if no handle then SP.

Hubbard's public books that are supposed to be sold to the public, dianetics, a new slant on life, problems of work, etc, are all rhetoric to persuade, or get agreement. This could also be called PR and Marketing, to get agreement.

No agreement = no persuasion or hypnosis.
I think you have a really good point here in that Hubbard liked to play with the whole reality=agreement thing. He mastered hypnosis and the power of persuasion and people seemed to forget about this aspect of his past, his personality, his research, and how he made this the foundation for which he built the entire project called Scientology. I actually believe the PR/marketing is at the core, or at the beginning "spark" of the hypnotic progression, and he also knew exactly how to disseminate Scientology through the arts. That was a partial key to getting raw public to "agree" that there was some legitimacy to come in and give it a try. I was "hatted" on how to work with celebs in Scientology. It's a tech all unto itself.

These little dissemination tools, mysterious secrets and curiosities bring people to want to know more, at which point, sitting down with the registrar begins another step into the abyss, where one agrees to give up some amount of their control to who they think knows "better." It is called Illusion of Control by Proxy: placing fate in the hands of someone else--the willingness to give up control to another if that person is thought to have more knowledge or skill. This more often than not happens in areas such as medicine, churches, science, etc. If the person that you're giving that control over to has an intention to lead you into something you wouldn't otherwise agree to, that is frankly called tricking said person if you are not giving them the things you are promising them. That is entrapping their mind into a world of lies without end.

Programmer guy mentioned going to college and taking classes and comparing this to being hypnotized (making a point of contention), and that is not the same thing. No one is tricking you into getting a degree and learning a real life skill to get a good job. No one is playing mind games with you and making you believe you are 1. already trapped in a viscous circle of ingrams, 2. need to be rescued and "freed from" said chains of the physical universe, 3. can only do it through the power of L. Ron Hubbard's exact application and NOTHING else or else you are DOOMED, and 4. must give over your life (money, time, energy, friends, family, children, parenthood, and empathy) in order to go free by any means necessary. This all starts happening, seriously, when you sign up for the very first thing in Scientology--your bullshit meter slowly starts to erode away the deeper and deeper you go and agree that it maybe an answer to the problem you never knew you had until you walked in there. The repetition alone, the peer pressure, the expectation of reciprocation and an end phenomenon--it's a no-brainer.

And remember the EP of the end of the Bridge is that you are who you were when you walked into Scientology! Hubbard says in the materials time and time again that everything WILL be okay, because he knew it was all a ruse, as he borrowed the whole idea from Thelema and combined it with all things hypnotic and got his followers to agree is was REAL.

The power of persuasion is very strong because he knew that reality requires agreement, he even got us (those of us that were trapped in the cult for a while) to agree that this stupid concept is true, when it actuality, it is NOT! Reality is not agreement. Reality is reality!
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
you should realize rhetoric, that is the concepts of ethos, pathos and logos, came before religion, before Jesus Christ or God concept.

There was no religion in ancient times of aristole and plato. That, religion, came later.

Ancient Greece was polytheistic:
and those mythical gods supposedly argued with each other on Mount Olympus.

https://www.ancient.eu/Greek_Religion/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology

I don't want to derail this thread topic further on this particular item.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I posted a great video by critical thinking expert Richard Paul. Paul described how their are three classes of thinkers ( He has others but here introduces three ) regarding knowledge. He described the vulgar thinker that doesn't really know a subject but knows some slogans like a Marxist who knows nothing about Marx or social theory or politics or history in general but has embraced a few slogans and may live and die for his understanding of Marxism. A sophistic (like sophist) thinker may know six volumes of Das Kapital by heart and can defend them against criticism but doesn't accept any information that contradicts his understanding of Marxism. His mind is closed and he doesn't see anything else. A critical thinker can see where his subject is complimented or further explained or strengthened by other subjects and can accept criticism of his subject and see where it needs to be elaborated or improved.

You really cannot graduate from sophistic thinking if you see one subject as not needing the understanding of other subjects to compliment it. What subject is complete and entirely valid with no need for improvement or critique ?

I will post a link to the video

I most wholeheartedly agree with this statement MB

and CoS does NOT!!!

I would, for instance, reccommend comparison of SOS to The Book of Proverbs. I find them to be in excedingly harmonious accord with one another.

And, once again, as I have often noted, I read everything I could find in the library about Hubbard and his work before I started and I maintained my personal integrity as a christian and defender of our Constitution applying critical thinking to the materials as I studied and practiced them...
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
I most wholeheartedly agree with this statement MB

and CoS does NOT!!!

I would, for instance, reccommend comparison of SOS to The Book of Proverbs. I find them to be in excedingly harmonious accord with one another.

And, once again, as I have often noted, I read everything I could find in the library about Hubbard and his work before I started and I maintained my personal integrity as a christian and defender of our Constitution applying critical thinking to the materials as I studied and practiced them...
I don't see what Christianity or the constitution have to do with this.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
I most wholeheartedly agree with this statement MB

and CoS does NOT!!!

I would, for instance, reccommend comparison of SOS to The Book of Proverbs. I find them to be in excedingly harmonious accord with one another.

And, once again, as I have often noted, I read everything I could find in the library about Hubbard and his work before I started and I maintained my personal integrity as a christian and defender of our Constitution applying critical thinking to the materials as I studied and practiced them...
Science of Survival has thousands of claims presented as scientifically validated that have zero proof even decades later.
 
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