sallydannce
Gold Meritorious Patron
This is not going to end well. Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/w...ims-in-vietnam-get-scientology-treatment.html
Agent Orange Victims Get Scientology Treatment (NY Times)
- Thread starter sallydannce
- Start date
This is not going to end well. Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/w...ims-in-vietnam-get-scientology-treatment.html
Helena Handbasket
Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm not so sure that's a bad idea. While the Purif for drug rehab is not such a great idea, for poison detoxification it just might work. I can't think of anything else that might be successful, except perhaps for chelation therapy or vitamin C.
At the very least, there is a lack of viable alternatives.
Will it work? I guess we'll get to find out.
Helena
At the very least, there is a lack of viable alternatives.
Will it work? I guess we'll get to find out.
Helena
Idle Morgue
Gold Meritorious Patron
"They are not preaching religion" YET!
But they will, my friend, you can BANK on it and they will too, "BANK" on it, that is!!
Let us know how that works out for you!!
But they will, my friend, you can BANK on it and they will too, "BANK" on it, that is!! Let us know how that works out for you!!Reasonable
Silver Meritorious Patron
personally I loved the purif...however I can see it now... a big fund raising campaign to make church of Scientology members pay full retail price to run the purif on these Vietnamese people as if you would need to pay $2000 per person in Vietnam where the cost of running it would be about $5 plus the cost of vitamins.
Pooks
MERCHANT OF CHAOS
The Purif is Junk Science pulled out of L. Ron Hubbard's ass.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/sources/reports/hogg.htm
CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE PURIFICATION RUNDOWN
by David Hogg, M.D.
This analysis will only cover some of the statements Hubbard puts forward concerning certain aspects of biochemistry and medicine. Many of his other statements I consider fallacious or even mendacious, but they will not be subjected to criticism here.
1. LSD
Hubbard makes many statements concerning this drug, all of which serve to illustrate his overwhelming ignorance of biochemistry.
"As it has been stated that it only takes one millionth of an ounce of LSD to produce a drugged condition and because it is basically wheat rust which simply cuts off circulation, my original thinking on this over the years was that LSD sticks around in the body. That basically is the idea underlying the original Sweat Program. The remedy given was to sweat it out. From the most recent research developments, it now appears that not only LSD but other chemical poisons and toxins, preservatives, pesticides, etc., as well as medical drugs and the long list of heavy street drugs... can lodge in the tissues and remain in the body for years."
Firstly, LSD is a chemical. It is thought to act by a direct effect on brain cells, perhaps by blocking the action of a neurotransmitter (a chemical messenger in the brain) known as Serotonin. this blockade may affect the brain adversely, causing the various hallucinogenic effects of the drug.
Hubbard claims that LSD "cuts off circulation". In fact, it does nothing of the sort; neither the output of blood from the heart nor its passage through any of the blood vessels in the body is affected. LSD affects only the brain, not the circulation.
Wheat rust is a virus which causes an infection of wheat; it has absolutely nothing in common with LSD either chemically or biologically. How Hubbard ever made the connection between the two is very puzzling; the fact that the two are linked together at all is evidence of his poor understanding of the subject.
There is no evidence at all that LSD or any of the other street drugs Hubbard mentions "lodge in the tissues for years". Indeed, these drugs, being water soluble, are excreted quickly. This is due to the fact that the body is mainly water. The drugs dissolve in the water and then are rapidly excreted from the body in the urine. (In view of this, Hubbard's claim that "trips during the program" (p.15) should be treated with "extra vitamin B complex and vitamin C" is seen to be false; you can't treat what isn't there.)
2. Fats and Oils
The only substances which Hubbard lists correctly as being stored in the tissues are pesticides. However, Hubbard has no idea how this occurs. He states:
"There is no such thing as a fat cell" (p.8)
This is incorrect. Hubbard might have merely consulted a basic medical text to realize this. The human body, like any complex living organism, is composed of cells. In the body, these cells are specialized for various functions; nerve cells, which relay messages to and from the brain; red blood cells, which carry oxygen to the body; and so on. The body stores fat in specialized fat cells. Hubbard, although claiming a good deal of knowledge of biology, does not even appreciate this very basic concept.
Hubbard then claims that to "clean up" fat tissue in the body, it is necessary to replace the fat broken down by exercise with an external source of oil. He is wrong on several counts.
Firstly, the body contains none of the street drugs stored in body tissues as Hubbard claims. The only exception to this is the active ingredient of marijuana; it may be stored in fat cells for as long as one to two months before it is finally excreted. It is not, as Hubbard claims, stored for years. LSD crystals do not exist at all in the body. Thus the "drug residues" which Hubbard bases most of his program on, simply do not exist.
Secondly, in order to rid the body of these drugs and toxins, Hubbard proposes to break down body fat. In the short term, this would actually increase the toxicity of such substances as pesticides because they would be released into the bloodstream as fat is broken down. The only instance of this occurring is in several species of birds exposed to DDT during the summer. In the winter, as the birds used up their body fat due to the lack of food, many died due to DDT poisoning. Fortunately, the levels of such substances are not high enough in the human population to cause such an effect; nonetheless, Hubbard's method of "cleansing" is certainly not medically sound.
Finally, Hubbard states that oil should be consumed to provide more fat to replace that which is broken down. In fact, oil is not necessary to make fat; the body may synthesize fat perfectly naturally from carbohydrates instead, as is evidenced by the number of obese candy lovers.
3. Vitamin Deficiencies
Hubbard's complete lack of medical knowledge is best demonstrated here.
Some introductory comments first. Hubbard states that alcohol "burns up" vitamin B1 and thus leads to the DTs. This is incorrect. Alcohol itself causes, in sufficient dose and following withdrawal, a clinical syndrome known as delirium tremens or the DTs. This syndrome is due to a sudden lack of alcohol in an addict of this drug; it is best characterized as a severe alcohol withdrawal reaction. Many alcoholics eat poorly and thus become deficient in thiamin or vitamin B1. They do not burn up this vitamin, they simply run out of it. They develop a neuralgic syndrome known as Wernicke-Korsakoff disease which will not be discussed here but which is much different from the DTs.
Following this, Hubbard claims that LSD and other street drugs burn up several vitamins. There is no evidence that this occurs. No vitamin deficiencies are due to a toxic effect of street drugs; what actually occurs is that many addicts eat very poorly and thus fail to consume the proper amount of vitamins. Deficiencies of these vitamins then develop, not due to the drugs themselves, but rather to the social situations which they create. The solution obviously lies in a discontinuation of the drug taking behavior and resumption of a proper diet.
4. Niacin
Hubbard devotes special attention to this vitamin and makes many statements concerning it, almost all of which are incorrect.
He first claims it "releases L.S.D. crystals into the system". As discussed earlier, there are no LSD crystals stored at all in the body anyway so this statement concerning this effect of niacin is incorrect.
Next, he states that, "Niacin's biochemical reaction is my own private, personal discovery". In fact, niacin was discovered about the turn of the century and its lack, which leads to a syndrome known as pellagra, was elucidated in the early 1900's. Niacin's action, as an important constituent in many of the body's chemical reactions, has been studied since that time by several notable biochemists; Hubbard is not among them. He has made no contribution to the field, has published no work pertaining to the substance and his claim that niacin is a "private personal discovery" is a total lie.
When given as a medication, Niacin may cause a direct effect on blood vessels of the skin causing them to dilate. This will be seen clinically as in itching, flushing sensation which passes quickly. Hubbard claims however that it is really "running out" sunburn or radiation. This is simply ridiculous; radiation, be it sunlight or otherwise, is not stored in the body as a chemical substance is, but is simply converted to some other sort of energy such as heat, or causes some tissue damage (i.e. sunburn). (Try catching a glass of sunlight!) It cannot therefore be "run out."
Niacin in the body is converted to a substance known as nicotinamide (tradename Niacinamide). Hubbard claims that this compound is worthless. He is incorrect again; in fact, nicotinamide given as a drug simply obviates the body's need to convert niacin to nicotinamide, and avoids the side effects of niacin.
It is of historical note that no one received a Nobel prize in 1973 for "curing insanity with niacin", as Hubbard claims.
5. Medical Risks of the Program
Hubbard attempts to cover himself as concerns the risks of the program by stating that:
"This program can be strenuous and should not be undertaken by anyone who has a weak heart or who is anemic."
His methods of clinical investigation, however, are highly questionable both medically and legally. He states that the "Medical Officer" who is "trained" may test applicants to the program for these problems. Many years of training are required to detect heart disease in some individuals. The medical officers in the various Orgs have no such training; Hubbard, by implying that they do, is perpetrating a medical fraud which may be highly dangerous to some people engaging in this program. For example, a patient with unsuspected coronary artery disease who is subjected to the stresses demanded of him in this combination of exercise and sauna stands a significant chance of suffering a heart attack.
It should be further noted that Hubbard gives as second choice a qualified medical doctor to check the applicant before embarking on the program; an MD is to be consulted only in the absence of a "medical officer".
Hubbard also states that the dose of niacin, which is given initially at 100mg a day, should be steadily increased. He then states:
"The other vitamins would have to be increased proportionately to Niacin at the same time the Niacin is increased..."
This may be dangerous to the person concerned. Probably most of the vitamins Hubbard recommends are harmless, even if they do none of the things he claims they do. However, vitamins A and D, if taken in large doses, may be quite harmful.
High levels of vitamin D may lead to a sudden increase in blood calcium. This will lead to symptoms of decreased appetite, nausea and vomiting, memory loss, decreased level of consciousness progressing to coma, and in infants, mental retardation. Kidney damage may also occur which is often not reversible on discontinuing the vitamin. Bone disease, with weakening and fractures, also occurs concomitantly.
Large amounts of vitamin A may lead to severe toxicity including a rise in the pressure of the fluid surrounding the brain, leading to headaches, visual disturbances and seizures. Even more worrisome is the fact that in animals, vitamin A leads to malformed offspring when fed to the pregnant mother.
Finally, Hubbard seems to feel that any drugs are dangerous, as he lumps them with street drugs and other poisons in his introductory section. Many people depend on certain drugs to maintain the function of their heart or other vital organs. In the case of these people, an instruction or even suggestion to cease taking their medications could be fatal.
In summary, Hubbard is a very ignorant man. He consistently demonstrates a complete and at times dangerous lack of knowledge concerning biochemistry, physics, and medicine. His theories are based on fallacies and lies; there is no scientific data to support any of them.
Furthermore, his program not only fails to deliver what it promises, but may actually be detrimental to the health of those taking it.
As such, it cannot be recommended that anyone take this program.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/sources/reports/hogg.htm
CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE PURIFICATION RUNDOWN
by David Hogg, M.D.
This analysis will only cover some of the statements Hubbard puts forward concerning certain aspects of biochemistry and medicine. Many of his other statements I consider fallacious or even mendacious, but they will not be subjected to criticism here.
1. LSD
Hubbard makes many statements concerning this drug, all of which serve to illustrate his overwhelming ignorance of biochemistry.
"As it has been stated that it only takes one millionth of an ounce of LSD to produce a drugged condition and because it is basically wheat rust which simply cuts off circulation, my original thinking on this over the years was that LSD sticks around in the body. That basically is the idea underlying the original Sweat Program. The remedy given was to sweat it out. From the most recent research developments, it now appears that not only LSD but other chemical poisons and toxins, preservatives, pesticides, etc., as well as medical drugs and the long list of heavy street drugs... can lodge in the tissues and remain in the body for years."
Firstly, LSD is a chemical. It is thought to act by a direct effect on brain cells, perhaps by blocking the action of a neurotransmitter (a chemical messenger in the brain) known as Serotonin. this blockade may affect the brain adversely, causing the various hallucinogenic effects of the drug.
Hubbard claims that LSD "cuts off circulation". In fact, it does nothing of the sort; neither the output of blood from the heart nor its passage through any of the blood vessels in the body is affected. LSD affects only the brain, not the circulation.
Wheat rust is a virus which causes an infection of wheat; it has absolutely nothing in common with LSD either chemically or biologically. How Hubbard ever made the connection between the two is very puzzling; the fact that the two are linked together at all is evidence of his poor understanding of the subject.
There is no evidence at all that LSD or any of the other street drugs Hubbard mentions "lodge in the tissues for years". Indeed, these drugs, being water soluble, are excreted quickly. This is due to the fact that the body is mainly water. The drugs dissolve in the water and then are rapidly excreted from the body in the urine. (In view of this, Hubbard's claim that "trips during the program" (p.15) should be treated with "extra vitamin B complex and vitamin C" is seen to be false; you can't treat what isn't there.)
2. Fats and Oils
The only substances which Hubbard lists correctly as being stored in the tissues are pesticides. However, Hubbard has no idea how this occurs. He states:
"There is no such thing as a fat cell" (p.8)
This is incorrect. Hubbard might have merely consulted a basic medical text to realize this. The human body, like any complex living organism, is composed of cells. In the body, these cells are specialized for various functions; nerve cells, which relay messages to and from the brain; red blood cells, which carry oxygen to the body; and so on. The body stores fat in specialized fat cells. Hubbard, although claiming a good deal of knowledge of biology, does not even appreciate this very basic concept.
Hubbard then claims that to "clean up" fat tissue in the body, it is necessary to replace the fat broken down by exercise with an external source of oil. He is wrong on several counts.
Firstly, the body contains none of the street drugs stored in body tissues as Hubbard claims. The only exception to this is the active ingredient of marijuana; it may be stored in fat cells for as long as one to two months before it is finally excreted. It is not, as Hubbard claims, stored for years. LSD crystals do not exist at all in the body. Thus the "drug residues" which Hubbard bases most of his program on, simply do not exist.
Secondly, in order to rid the body of these drugs and toxins, Hubbard proposes to break down body fat. In the short term, this would actually increase the toxicity of such substances as pesticides because they would be released into the bloodstream as fat is broken down. The only instance of this occurring is in several species of birds exposed to DDT during the summer. In the winter, as the birds used up their body fat due to the lack of food, many died due to DDT poisoning. Fortunately, the levels of such substances are not high enough in the human population to cause such an effect; nonetheless, Hubbard's method of "cleansing" is certainly not medically sound.
Finally, Hubbard states that oil should be consumed to provide more fat to replace that which is broken down. In fact, oil is not necessary to make fat; the body may synthesize fat perfectly naturally from carbohydrates instead, as is evidenced by the number of obese candy lovers.
3. Vitamin Deficiencies
Hubbard's complete lack of medical knowledge is best demonstrated here.
Some introductory comments first. Hubbard states that alcohol "burns up" vitamin B1 and thus leads to the DTs. This is incorrect. Alcohol itself causes, in sufficient dose and following withdrawal, a clinical syndrome known as delirium tremens or the DTs. This syndrome is due to a sudden lack of alcohol in an addict of this drug; it is best characterized as a severe alcohol withdrawal reaction. Many alcoholics eat poorly and thus become deficient in thiamin or vitamin B1. They do not burn up this vitamin, they simply run out of it. They develop a neuralgic syndrome known as Wernicke-Korsakoff disease which will not be discussed here but which is much different from the DTs.
Following this, Hubbard claims that LSD and other street drugs burn up several vitamins. There is no evidence that this occurs. No vitamin deficiencies are due to a toxic effect of street drugs; what actually occurs is that many addicts eat very poorly and thus fail to consume the proper amount of vitamins. Deficiencies of these vitamins then develop, not due to the drugs themselves, but rather to the social situations which they create. The solution obviously lies in a discontinuation of the drug taking behavior and resumption of a proper diet.
4. Niacin
Hubbard devotes special attention to this vitamin and makes many statements concerning it, almost all of which are incorrect.
He first claims it "releases L.S.D. crystals into the system". As discussed earlier, there are no LSD crystals stored at all in the body anyway so this statement concerning this effect of niacin is incorrect.
Next, he states that, "Niacin's biochemical reaction is my own private, personal discovery". In fact, niacin was discovered about the turn of the century and its lack, which leads to a syndrome known as pellagra, was elucidated in the early 1900's. Niacin's action, as an important constituent in many of the body's chemical reactions, has been studied since that time by several notable biochemists; Hubbard is not among them. He has made no contribution to the field, has published no work pertaining to the substance and his claim that niacin is a "private personal discovery" is a total lie.
When given as a medication, Niacin may cause a direct effect on blood vessels of the skin causing them to dilate. This will be seen clinically as in itching, flushing sensation which passes quickly. Hubbard claims however that it is really "running out" sunburn or radiation. This is simply ridiculous; radiation, be it sunlight or otherwise, is not stored in the body as a chemical substance is, but is simply converted to some other sort of energy such as heat, or causes some tissue damage (i.e. sunburn). (Try catching a glass of sunlight!) It cannot therefore be "run out."
Niacin in the body is converted to a substance known as nicotinamide (tradename Niacinamide). Hubbard claims that this compound is worthless. He is incorrect again; in fact, nicotinamide given as a drug simply obviates the body's need to convert niacin to nicotinamide, and avoids the side effects of niacin.
It is of historical note that no one received a Nobel prize in 1973 for "curing insanity with niacin", as Hubbard claims.
5. Medical Risks of the Program
Hubbard attempts to cover himself as concerns the risks of the program by stating that:
"This program can be strenuous and should not be undertaken by anyone who has a weak heart or who is anemic."
His methods of clinical investigation, however, are highly questionable both medically and legally. He states that the "Medical Officer" who is "trained" may test applicants to the program for these problems. Many years of training are required to detect heart disease in some individuals. The medical officers in the various Orgs have no such training; Hubbard, by implying that they do, is perpetrating a medical fraud which may be highly dangerous to some people engaging in this program. For example, a patient with unsuspected coronary artery disease who is subjected to the stresses demanded of him in this combination of exercise and sauna stands a significant chance of suffering a heart attack.
It should be further noted that Hubbard gives as second choice a qualified medical doctor to check the applicant before embarking on the program; an MD is to be consulted only in the absence of a "medical officer".
Hubbard also states that the dose of niacin, which is given initially at 100mg a day, should be steadily increased. He then states:
"The other vitamins would have to be increased proportionately to Niacin at the same time the Niacin is increased..."
This may be dangerous to the person concerned. Probably most of the vitamins Hubbard recommends are harmless, even if they do none of the things he claims they do. However, vitamins A and D, if taken in large doses, may be quite harmful.
High levels of vitamin D may lead to a sudden increase in blood calcium. This will lead to symptoms of decreased appetite, nausea and vomiting, memory loss, decreased level of consciousness progressing to coma, and in infants, mental retardation. Kidney damage may also occur which is often not reversible on discontinuing the vitamin. Bone disease, with weakening and fractures, also occurs concomitantly.
Large amounts of vitamin A may lead to severe toxicity including a rise in the pressure of the fluid surrounding the brain, leading to headaches, visual disturbances and seizures. Even more worrisome is the fact that in animals, vitamin A leads to malformed offspring when fed to the pregnant mother.
Finally, Hubbard seems to feel that any drugs are dangerous, as he lumps them with street drugs and other poisons in his introductory section. Many people depend on certain drugs to maintain the function of their heart or other vital organs. In the case of these people, an instruction or even suggestion to cease taking their medications could be fatal.
In summary, Hubbard is a very ignorant man. He consistently demonstrates a complete and at times dangerous lack of knowledge concerning biochemistry, physics, and medicine. His theories are based on fallacies and lies; there is no scientific data to support any of them.
Furthermore, his program not only fails to deliver what it promises, but may actually be detrimental to the health of those taking it.
As such, it cannot be recommended that anyone take this program.
sallydannce
Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks heaps for posting this Pooks. I had not read it - been on such an intensive reading pgm these past few years and this one slipped through the net.
It has blown away some of the debris which needed blowing away! I was trained in purif delivery and had not addressed this tangled mess in my head yet. Recently I have been reading some basic biochemistry info about reactions of drugs in the brain/body. Hogg's data matches what I had read from several sources. So Hubbard is full of shit. Like what is new!
As you say, junk "science" pulled out of Hubbard's arse. To think the Vietnamese government are paying for folk to do the purif....mmm...like I said in my other post on this thread - this ain't gonna end well.
Thanks again. Let's hope the desperate and trying to do the right thing Vietnamese officials- but conned by some smooth talking scientologists - get some hard-arse science.
SpecialFrog
Silver Meritorious Patron
There are treatments for acute toxicity and then there is the method for dealing with non-acute exposure to toxic elements, which is basically to stop getting exposed to toxins long enough for your body to recover.
If the issue is damage cause by Agent Orange exposure 40 years ago the purif isn't going to do anything.
It might help in this case, but so would a nice vacation to somewhere that hasn't been saturated in poisonous chemicals.
I know which viable alternative I would choose.
Reasonable
Silver Meritorious Patron
I agree that Hubbard does not understand science and makes things up. All I said (if this comment was directed at me becasue it was right under my comment) was that I loved the purif. I did feel much better after the purif and for a long time. I am sure his explanation and understanding of it was inaccurate and in fact fabricated but however you slice it I felt great after doing that program. The idea that sweating is good for a person makes sense to me. Sweating has been a part of many natural health systems for thousands of years.
As much as i don't trust Scientology I trust medicine even less. Just beausue a guy has MD after his name doesn't make him right. I am sure that if you pick apart his article some is right ans some is wrong. As an MD he too has an agenda, which is to keep MDs as the authority on all health related issues. Which they are not
You nor he nor I have the knowledge to say that "It can not be recommended that anyone take this program".
I got out of Scientology to make my own decisions on what is right for me not to let some other "authority" tell me what to do.
Terril park
Sponsor
I also got good results from the purif.
The director of the hospital running this program has a Ph D and presumably is not short of nedical knowledge. Unlike Narconon it seems
this program will have adequate medical supervision. It seems in fact to be a Pilot program. I've passed on a message to him that the program should also have treatments with Chlorella which is known to reduce Dioxins in the biody.
SpecialFrog
Silver Meritorious Patron
Reasonable said:
While I am glad you felt better after doing the purif, does that in any way demonstrate it does what it is supposed to do?
Having a cold beer at the end of a long work day gives me "good results" but I wouldn't suggest it as a treatment for Agent Orange poisoning.
Sharone Stainforth
Silver Meritorious Patron
Originally written by Pooks:
lot's of things were pulled out of L. Ron Hubbard's ass, the only thing put in his ass was Vistaril. or at least as far as we know.
lot's of things were pulled out of L. Ron Hubbard's ass, the only thing put in his ass was Vistaril. or at least as far as we know.
Ogsonofgroo
Crusader
Took some time to read up a bit, having a gut feeling this is a disaster in the making.
Couple of points in case~ Firstly, purif ain't going to work, in fact will probably cause more damage to the people being treated, liver and cell, since any successful release of dioxins from fat cells is going to get re-cycled and re-absorbed via bile/liver. The potential as I understand it, is for even more damage to take place (refer to page 8 of the article in the link below "Detox-Retox", pretty good read).
Secondly~ Again within my limited understanding, is that the process for dealing with extremly durable and toxic chemicals such as 2-4-D mixtures such as Agent Orange, is that of slowly diluting it via the body's natural cell replacement, which takes months, a clean source of essential fats, a good diet, and close monitoring.
In Vietnam, hm, don't see this happening.
Thirdly~ Even if it was possible to flush dioxins, what then? How would the residue be dealt with? Again, from what I have gathered on this latest reading expedition, this class of chemicals is extremely stable, they don't break down for hundreds of years and it takes something like 1000 degrees F to bust them up. Once introduced into the environment its pretty much there to stay, for a long, long time
There's a bunch more but I am going to refrain from getting long-winded here. Bottom line is, this shit ain't gonna fly as approached by LRH's inept, ill-founded, and bogus 'science'.
They are fucking with people's lives, per usual
I think some serious 'pooning of the gov't agencies involved is in order, unfortunately I have neither the time nor energy to devote to this, hopefully someone will.
One of the better articles I found, well written and informative imho~
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbRhU8NluE1PFLYFI4jp_clXxdPk2w&pli=1
Oh, and FUCK YOU OSA!
Couple of points in case~ Firstly, purif ain't going to work, in fact will probably cause more damage to the people being treated, liver and cell, since any successful release of dioxins from fat cells is going to get re-cycled and re-absorbed via bile/liver. The potential as I understand it, is for even more damage to take place (refer to page 8 of the article in the link below "Detox-Retox", pretty good read).
Secondly~ Again within my limited understanding, is that the process for dealing with extremly durable and toxic chemicals such as 2-4-D mixtures such as Agent Orange, is that of slowly diluting it via the body's natural cell replacement, which takes months, a clean source of essential fats, a good diet, and close monitoring.
In Vietnam, hm, don't see this happening.
Thirdly~ Even if it was possible to flush dioxins, what then? How would the residue be dealt with? Again, from what I have gathered on this latest reading expedition, this class of chemicals is extremely stable, they don't break down for hundreds of years and it takes something like 1000 degrees F to bust them up. Once introduced into the environment its pretty much there to stay, for a long, long time
There's a bunch more but I am going to refrain from getting long-winded here. Bottom line is, this shit ain't gonna fly as approached by LRH's inept, ill-founded, and bogus 'science'.
They are fucking with people's lives, per usual
I think some serious 'pooning of the gov't agencies involved is in order, unfortunately I have neither the time nor energy to devote to this, hopefully someone will.
One of the better articles I found, well written and informative imho~
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbRhU8NluE1PFLYFI4jp_clXxdPk2w&pli=1
Oh, and FUCK YOU OSA!
Sharone Stainforth
Silver Meritorious Patron
Whilst you keep emphasizing your "good results" on the purif, other people have died. That does not mean, "I'll end cycle and go pick up another body", it means they are DEAD!
Helena Handbasket
Gold Meritorious Patron
THE REAL EP OF THE PURIFICATION RUNDOWN
Whatever else can be said about the Purification Rundown; the vitamins used, particularly niacin, act as "antirepressives" in that certain traumatic (or at least uncomfortable) memories are unburied and brought from the subconcious to the concious or near-concious.
All of us have engaged in repression at times. We simply block out what has been difficult to deal with, and many people go on quite comfortably throughout their entire lives like this. When these thoughts are unburied, we either have to deal with them or bury them again.
Drug addiction, alcoholism, and even overeating are strategies people use to keep their buried memories buried. Even refusing to eat healthy foods, take (normal) vitamins, or do exercise is a form of this.
The Church is, of course, in favour of more not less awareness. The Purif is therefore one of the very first actions a newbie is signed up for. Which brings us to the real EP of the Purification Rundown -- WHEN THE NEWBIE DECIDES THEY NEED AUDITING.
You know the rest of the story.
Helena
Whatever else can be said about the Purification Rundown; the vitamins used, particularly niacin, act as "antirepressives" in that certain traumatic (or at least uncomfortable) memories are unburied and brought from the subconcious to the concious or near-concious.
All of us have engaged in repression at times. We simply block out what has been difficult to deal with, and many people go on quite comfortably throughout their entire lives like this. When these thoughts are unburied, we either have to deal with them or bury them again.
Drug addiction, alcoholism, and even overeating are strategies people use to keep their buried memories buried. Even refusing to eat healthy foods, take (normal) vitamins, or do exercise is a form of this.
The Church is, of course, in favour of more not less awareness. The Purif is therefore one of the very first actions a newbie is signed up for. Which brings us to the real EP of the Purification Rundown -- WHEN THE NEWBIE DECIDES THEY NEED AUDITING.
You know the rest of the story.
Helena
sallydannce
Gold Meritorious Patron
My bold in last para.
Are you being serious or facetious with this sentence?
Are you are saying that the cult of scientology and its methods, [STRIKE]based[/STRIKE] entrenched [STRIKE]on[/STRIKE] in the writings of L Ron Hubbard, are in favour of people becoming more spiritually, emotionally and consciously aware? Or is your tongue firmly in your cheek?
Reasonable
Silver Meritorious Patron
While I am glad you felt better after doing the purif, does that in any way demonstrate it does what it is supposed to do?
Does it clear all toxins out of the body to total perfection as Hubbard says? No
But you ask “in any way” to that I say yes
Might it help detoxify some toxins from the body? I think yes. I think it is a step in the right direction, I think sweating therapy makes sense, many type of elimination/detox therapies make sense. I like the idea of detoxing, whether it be liver flushes, kidney flushes, deep breathing colon flushes, lymph massage, or more hydration.
When doing any therapy you have to consider the alternatives:
Here are a few common medical “solutions”:
• Do nothing
• Take steroids
• Take pain medication
So for me I would try any of the more natural routs I mentioned above, sweating seems logical.
Having a cold beer at the end of a long work day gives me "good results" but I wouldn't suggest it as a treatment for Agent Orange poisoning.
After I did the purif I lost weight, I was able to exercise more, my back pain went away, the dark circles under my eyes went away, and I slept better for a long time after I completed the program. So if drinking beer does all that then yes I suggest you drink a lot of beer and recommend it as an option for people who want better health.
My main point was not whether or not I should make someone do the purif or not. I just don’t like when someone says “This is not recommended for anyone” I thought that was ignorant. I just say let people make their own decisions on what works for them. Just because I am not a Hubbard follower does not make me trust modern medicine one bit more than I used to.
The person whose comment I was referring to used to believe in Hubbard and believed what he said, now she gets some write up form a medical doctor and believes what he said and repeats it back as fact. Medicine has killed more people than Scientology. I just think that after Scientology I trust myself more than any authority. I believe in options and letting people make decisions for themselves, especially when it comes to their own health.
SpecialFrog
Silver Meritorious Patron
Medicine has killed more people than Scientology but I'd argue that, unlike Scientology, it has had a significantly net-positive result, particularly in the last 50 years.
Also, the thing with science is that it doesn't rely on trusting authorities.
There are certainly bad doctors and there are types of conditions for which medical science has inadequate solutions but this doesn't make solutions that are inconsistent with science viable.
I don't know your background, but I know some people forced do to the purif while in the Sea Org had a lot of benefit from it largely because it was essentially a vacation from their normal crazy work schedule.
As I've said, taking Vietnamese farmers out of a toxic environment and putting them in a sauna for a few months with a decent diet is likely to be good for them.
But that doesn't mean the purif does anything that can't be achieved by a relaxing holiday in a nice environment.
secretiveoldfag
Silver Meritorious Patron
I believe long exposure to high temperatures in a sauna is dangerous. It damages people. It can cause death, not always immediately, from tissue damage.
I am not aware of any possible mechanism by which sweat can remove pesticides or heavy metals or any other pollutants from the places where they are stored. This is loony tunes. Active people such as Vietnamese farmers sweat all the time and their bodies still store pollutants.
The dangers of niacin overdose are documented.
Hubbard's purification techniques are on a par with his understanding that you can get rid of radio-activity by washing.
He was a pretty good advertisement for his own discoveries.
In other words this is just another Hubturd con.
I am not aware of any possible mechanism by which sweat can remove pesticides or heavy metals or any other pollutants from the places where they are stored. This is loony tunes. Active people such as Vietnamese farmers sweat all the time and their bodies still store pollutants.
The dangers of niacin overdose are documented.
Hubbard's purification techniques are on a par with his understanding that you can get rid of radio-activity by washing.
He was a pretty good advertisement for his own discoveries.
In other words this is just another Hubturd con.
Ogsonofgroo
Crusader
I cannot agree less with the above bolded regarding sauna, sure it might make one feel good, I certainly have enjoyed the relaxing/sweating of a good hot sauna myself, but in dealing with dioxins in this situation (people of low body mass with high levels of non-water-soluable herbicides), can potentially cause far more health problems/risks and no benefits other than making the person feel like 'something is being done'.
Add a concoction of vitamins to the equation, especially high doses of niacin, along with running/exercise routine, is going to end up doing more harm than doing nothing. (please take the time to read at least the first 8 pages of the paper I linked to (nm,HERE IT IS), to further understand why I am saying this)
These people are going to suffer horribly, and being poor, will have little or no recourse once further damage is done.
Meanwhile the fraudulent perpetrators/purveyors of Hubbard's stupidity will stuff their pockets with their ill-gotten gains and flee, fluffy heads in the clouds thinking they did a good thing.
Its fucking criminal!
~ and this kind of stupid is evil imho.
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