"Justice" inside the CofS? - Not that I saw or experienced!

[Boojuum]

It's the thugs

Fabulous thread! A sane and rational person typically doesn't expect to be dealing with an underhanded, manipulative jerk who will stop at nothing to enforce his views. COFS isn't about a sane exchange of ideas, it's not about a sane justice system, it's about control, controlling people's lives and controlling money. I was fooled into thinking that I was dealing with sane people following intelligent policies. The justice system is a thug system in spite of the honorable claims of it's founder.

I was shocked the first time I read the findings of a comm ev. The "findings" had wording such as "banned forever from all organizations," "HIGH CRIMES", "SUPPRESSIVE ACTS." These are the words of a vindictive person having some type of temper tantrum. It isn't workable and certainly doesn't sound like sane justice.

Somewhere in policy LRH makes a good observation in stating something to the effect that in the absence of tech, ethics are high; he also said that people can be counted on to squirrel if they don't seem to be getting results with standard tech. The current management is stuck in an organization that isn't seeing results, so....

1. I think a key problem with COFS management has been impatience. The whole harsh ethics scene is based on the insane and urgent need to generate huge results immediately on all levels. Seeing students running around courserooms is a sure sign that true learning has been replaced with robotic behavior. Thursday at 2 insanity is just nuts. We all got used to it as a fun type of frenetic game but I daresay it wasn't effective in producing long term success.

2. The introduction of physical punishment and its maintainence (EPF, RPF, amends projects involved MEST work) has produced a weird system that has nothing to do with improving anyone's ability levels, his auditing or training. Strangely, the RPF is where many people actually get auditing and up the grade charts (or they used to). Someone please tell me the wisdom of correcting behavior by mopping floors.

3. Successful missions were key to much of Scientology's early success. Many missions were based on strong personalities having enough automony and personal charm to form successful groups. The post '82 scene fully reflects the idiocy of bypassing juniors (the missions) with the result being that the SO now has the job of all the mission holders and they aren't doing that job very well.

4. OSA/GO is the ultimate manifestation of vicious and paranoid behavior by the organization. Remember that Operation Snow White was really about trying to get a writer jailed for a crime she didn't commit. Remember that GO operatives really did break into confidential government files. I understand the need for a PR front group. I also can sympathize with a legal department trying to protect your good name--as long as it's done legally. Private investigators and endless frivolous law suits mark the organization as weird but also vicious and downright scarey.

5. The good results of the cofs became so obscured by the impatient practices of inexperienced newbie managers, cycling through kids in sailor suits who have based their thinking on a weak set of guidelines. Unfortunately for the COFS, the only thing that that the top organization can correctly implement seems to be discipline--heavy ethics.

Lasting results come from sane and reliable relationships. Working structures take time to develop. Without trust and personal integrity you end up with a nutty organization that runs on hope and infrequent results. I've worked in numerous wog groups and seen a lot of weird stuff but nothing approaches the anxiety levels I experienced at the FLB. Nothing approaches the viciousness of the ethics handlings. Nothing approached the musical chairs of key positions. All are destable-izing. It seems like such a waste, with all the energy and dedication and money, one would expect a far superior result. So I'm content to watch the COFS destroy itself through self-flagellation, heavy ethics, high anxiety, and Thursday at 2 madness. The justice system only has the name justice and the COFS members can only hope for true justice. It's about control and money and vindictiveness and petty meanness and if you're hoping for an honest consideration of deeds, a weighing of rightness or righting of wrongs, or even a hearing, you are in the wrong place. It's a thug system of justice.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

That was clearly a factor. I strongly suspect however there was more to it. I take the increased drug use as symptomatic of something more fundamental such as a deteriorating mood disorder condition possibly complicated by unhandled "case" issues.


Mark A. Baker

deteriorating mood disorder condition, unhandled "case" issues, bat shit crazy

We're pretty much talking the same thing here, the man was going insane and refused to seek medical help, instead he chose faith healing via Scientology and self medication with heavy dosages of drugs. If he was a public Scientologist he would have been deemed 'non-sessionable' 100% of the time and kicked to the curb by being declared an SP as soon as his bank accounts were drained and all his real estate was fully leveraged.

 

[Kookaburra]

deteriorating mood disorder condition, unhandled "case" issues, bat shit crazy

We're pretty much talking the same thing here, the man was going insane and refused to seek medical help, instead he chose faith healing via Scientology and self medication with heavy dosages of drugs. If he was a public Scientologist he would have been deemed 'non-sessionable' 100% of the time and kicked to the curb by being declared an SP as soon as his bank accounts were drained and all his real estate was fully leveraged.

I never thought of that before but I think you're right. He would have been declared.

 

[lkwdblds]

Kudos to Boojuum

Boojuum - Excellent post, many good points well stated! On the Thursday at 2:00 PM mania, I concur that it led to sheer madness. When I was still a 100% believer, I wrote to LRH on the Sea Org 1 line about how insane it got as 2:00 PM approached. I got a light hearted reply back stating that "Yes, it can get a little hectic before 2:00 Thursday" It was obvious by the way the reply was written that LRH (or an LRH ghost writer) highly approved of the Thursday at 2:00 PM deadline and thought that having it aided and increased production.

One related topic that I have never seen discussed is the Friday Graduation
ceremony. The first few weeks I was in Scn, I enjoyed going to hear all the great wins. After a short while, it seemed to me that anything and everything was given a standing ovation. Susie cures a long standing problem with an ingrown toe nail via a touch assist and is given a 2 minute standing ovation. Joe does an hour of "reach and withdraw" on his pencils, pens, paper and envelopes and states that a couple of days later a letter arrived from Uncle John who had previously hated Scientology, stating that he was arriving in town for a visit and now wanted Joe to take him to an Intro Lecture. Immediately, people would leap to their feet and torrents of applause would occur for minutes. I decided that I would not go to anymore graduations. There was no out ethics here but the practice did trivialize the instances when a true major achievment or win occured. A guy completing his Academy levels and Susie with her toe nail would both receive the same 2 minute standing ovation.

This same thing happened at the major events held at places like the Shrine Auditorium in L.A. It was like a an exercise class doing deep knee bends - up and down and up and down, standing ovation after standing ovation. Someone read "The Way to Happiness" in the Farsi language in a central Asian republic and started brushing his teeth and being courteous to his parents for the first time and the auditorium would erupt with applause, the same applause as a guy who sold 5000 Dianetics books in one year would get. My thinking was that if the tech is as good and powerful as the C of S says it is in its PR program and as stated on the grade chart, wins should be expected as a common occurance. They should be acknowledged and politely applauded for a few seconds and the big standing ovations should be reserved for the few large really significant major wins. I actually stopped attending events partly because of too many standing ovations.!
lkwdblds

 

[Boojuum]

Hip, hip

I think the sharing of wins turned into a rite of sorts. I feels good to have people cheer for you and I'm sure lead to some of the group bonding I observed. I've seen some pretty strange stuff during these sharing of wins exercises. The strangest has to be the hip, hip hooray for LRH. Can you think of any other group which insisted on this practice as a rite? Call a spade a spade, it was weird and it's continued practice should have served as proof that we were in a very bizarre place.

 

[lkwdblds]

Isn't the "hip, hip hooray" a military tradition?

When I experienced my first "hip, hip, hooray" I did not question it much in my mind. It seems to me it is a military tradition. Say, General Robert E. Lee and his troops are getting their butts kicked by Stonewall Jackson's troops who are superior in number and weaponry. Lee ponders the situation and works out an ingenious trap where he decieves Jackson, out manuevers him and takes a strategic hill which leads to Lee wining the battle. Word gets out that Lee's brilliance and determination won the battle and then Lee begins getting "hip, hips" whenever he speaks before the troops.

Just from watching movies, I think I have seen it done at graduation at West Point when all the new graduates throw their hats up into the air. Also, a popular U.S. president such as John F. Kennedy was, might get "hip, hips" when speaking before the troops. It could conceivably be used to honor a sport's hero but is never used within a business. Its regular usage in a Church is totally unprecented I am sure. Can you imaginge the Catholics doing "hip, hips" for the Pope? How about Buddhists doing one for Buddha or the Dali Lama. Even sillier, a Jewish synagogue doing one for the rabbi - oops that would probably get the Jews in trouble for idolizing someone other than God.

Not just the hip, hip, hoorays but the entire Naval set up sort of lets you know you are getting involved in something quite bazaar.
lkwdblds

 

[BAYCB]

"hip, hip hooray"

I have been following this thread and find the comments by lkwdblds and Boojuum very insightful.

When I first started attending scientology courses I always thought applauding LRH's (very large Picture) at the end of the course period was strange, especially when someone would at times do the hip,hip hooray. I never could get use to it, but went along with the rest of the crowd.

Years later when I started running the academy I stopped the practice. There was nothing in policy to say that it had to be done. When I was asked why I didn't do this I explained that if someone wanted to show their appreciation to LRH they could write him a letter or write a success story, or better yet continue to audit and help clear the planet. To this day I believe the academy at that time had the highest ever attendance and points.

It's hard to believe that the higher someone goes up the bridge the more they are not trusted (6 month sec checks). What ever happen to recognition of the rightness of a being?

Seems all David Miscavige can see are wrongness and those below him are following in his footsteps.

Ron Minor

 

[CornPie]

...The rest of your questions are all answered "no". I never saw any of the things happen which you questioned...

lkwdblds, Thank you for your reply. I am restating the questions below, reworded, for others to answer in this "justice" thread.

...The Running Program wasn't developed until well after 1976 when Flag went ashore. I'm guessing around 1982, but I don't know for sure...

Dulloldfart, As I had stated elsewhere, in the late 1970's, I was advised that people were being forced to run around a pole as punishment. The guy didn't say when (but it was before 1980), or where, and I didn't ask. At that time, I passed off his "pole running" statement as dubious, but now I believe it. As far as "justice" goes, this is dispicable. It amazes that some scientology issues are so bad that people are reluctant to talk or write about them. Although here's a thread, on which two people, Brooks and Prince, speak about pole running in an Internet video:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=10772

Regardless of where it occurred (Gilman Hot Springs, Castiel Canyon, Big Blue, Florida, a ship, or elsewhere) scientology should be exposed and lambasted for these atrocities.

Questions to All: Have you seen, or have you been a scientology RPF prisoner, where people:
1) Ran around poles, for hours, days, weeks, months, years.
2) Was-or-is the running program; clockwise one day, counter clock-wise the next?
3) Pushing small objects (e.g. pencils, peanuts) with their nose; on the floor or deck of a ship.
4) Did you ever see LRH, or anybody else, verbally abuse RPF'ers by yelling, "Faster, faster!"
5) Can you direct us to videos of these atrocities on YouTube.com, Vimeo.com or RuTube.ru?

Were you a villain, a victim? Please write about it on ESMB, or even better talk about it on an Internet video?

 

[Dulloldfart]

Dulloldfart, As I had stated elsewhere, in the late 1970's, I was advised that people were being forced to run around a pole as punishment. The guy didn't say when (but it was before 1980), or where, and I didn't ask.
...
Questions to All: Have you seen, or have you been a scientology RPF prisoner, where people:
1) Ran around poles, for hours, days, weeks, months, years.
2) Was-or-is the running program; clockwise one day, counter clock-wise the next?
3) Pushing small objects (e.g. pencils, peanuts) with their nose; on the floor or deck of a ship.
4) Did you ever see LRH, or anybody else, verbally abuse RPF'ers by yelling, "Faster, faster!"
5) Can you direct us to videos of these atrocities on YouTube.com, Vimeo.com or RuTube.ru?

Were you a villain, a victim? Please write about it on ESMB, or even better talk about it on an Internet video?

OK, thanks.

I was on the RPF for a few months in England in 1978/9 and in LA in 1996. I'm not aware of anyone doing 1) to 4) at those times.

Paul

 

[Veda]

I have been following this thread and find the comments by lkwdblds and Boojuum very insightful.

When I first started attending scientology courses I always thought applauding LRH's (very large Picture) at the end of the course period was strange, especially when someone would at times do the hip,hip hooray. I never could get use to it, but went along with the rest of the crowd.

Years later when I started running the academy I stopped the practice. There was nothing in policy to say that it had to be done. When I was asked why I didn't do this I explained that if someone wanted to show their appreciation to LRH they could write him a letter or write a success story, or better yet continue to audit and help clear the planet. To this day I believe the academy at that time had the highest ever attendance and points.

It's hard to believe that the higher someone goes up the bridge the more they are not trusted (6 month sec checks). What ever happen to recognition of the rightness of a being?

Seems all David Miscavige can see are wrongness and those below him are following in his footsteps.

Ron Minor

"There was nothing in policy" can be misleading, since Scientology never did, and doesn't now, run, only, on "policy." There has always been a "hidden data line."

For starters, there are confidential HCOPLs that are not in the 'Green volumes," and then other Hubbard confidential issues which affect Scientologists in various ways, sometimes to their bewilderment.

Just for the heck of it, checked 'Modern Management Technology Defined' (large green volume), and it features entries that begin with "LRH" over forty times. Under 'Source' is written: "Scientologists recognize and revere the spiritual leadership of L. Ron Hubbard as the founder and the Source..."

I've seen some confidential LRH PPRO materials, and have read about people applauding Hubbard when he appeared (I think it was Gilman Hot Springs) - reminiscent of Idi Amin being applauded by his admiring/fearful minions - but haven't seen anything that specifically says "Applaud LRH's photo." Considering the intesity with which that was done (going back to the late 1960s), particularly by people who just returned from the "Flagship," where - if they weren't before - they had become fanatics for "LRH tech," it's not likely that this was being done against Hubbard's wishes.

 

[BAYCB]

"There was nothing in policy" can be misleading, since Scientology never did, and doesn't now, run, only, on "policy." There has always been a "hidden data line."

True enough....and even when there is policy in place it can be perverted to suit the powers that be. Just the earlier examples of this thread shows the lack of Justice even though there are "Justice" policies in place.

Ron Minor

 

[Boojuum]

My thought is that the Hip Hip was forced. Not like a successful general returning to a troop muster to a spontaneous and happy cheer from the troops. The hip hip in the cofs was rarely spontaneous--forced and many indifferent responses. I did it because I didn't want to raise a stink about it. On the other hand, many of the musters where wins were shared were wonderful, happy experiences. Many of the wins I heard were great. The hip hips...urrr.

 

[BAYCB]

My Justice experience

As to Justice experiences I should bring this up.

After I routed off staff in the early 90's, the ethics officer at the org (a sea org member who had been assigned to our org due to his wife..another sea org member, being pregnant) had written up reports and had a committee of evidence convened on me. All this was done without my knowledge.

The committee was held at ASHO in LA. The chairman (I wish I could remember his name) thought it was odd that I would not come to my own comm ev. Luckily a friend of mine was on the briefing course at the time. They contacted him and my friend was able to tell me that I was being comm eved. This was a total surprise to me.

A couple of weeks later I went to LA, and the comm ev lasted about three days. The chairman was very fair and actually looked at the facts of the reports. The funny thing is I don't think the findings were ever published. Basically I was told that most of the reports were false or miss-leading. Part of the committee of evidence policy is that if one is found to be lying, you would be charged with the same penalties. Since I was no longer on lines and had routed off staff, and my accuser was in the sea org, the whole thing was just dropped.

So, I did receive Justice in a way, but it was only because of the integrity of the person applying it. If it had been a friend of the ethics officer, I'm sure I would have been declared. From what I've read on this thread it seems most of the honest Sea Org members have been either routed out, blown, RPFed or just pounded into submission.


Ron Minor