anonycat?

[Commander Birdsong]

Auditing doesn't fuck people up, unless you include the stuff "after clear" on the Grade Chart.

The organizational demands and the fact that auditing doesn't do what they advertise it to do (turn you into a Jedi) is what fucks people up.

o, i don't know about that kevin...

over on the fcdc thread i believe i have accounted when the qual sec and i crossed light sabers back in 1973, four years prior to the release of star wars

his was golden rod

mine was blue

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Birdy,

WTF?

You've created a monster thread....from nothing! (I'm on p. 22, trying to catch up.)

If that's not OT, I dont know what is.

I'm going mushroom picking tomorrow.

Wish You Were Here.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Birdy,

WTF?

You've created a monster thread....from nothing! (I'm on p. 22, trying to catch up.)

If that's not OT, I dont know what is.

I'm going mushroom picking tomorrow.

Wish You Were Here.

it don't seem too bad so far...


i think it's especially a good thread for new lurkers because the first thirtyfive pages give a good survey of the basics of the dialogue about the subject and most of the writing is accessible to semi-intelligent readers

 

[Adam7986]

scientists have many differing opinions on many things and have certain rights before the law by reason of the first amendment

i have done research in many categories; scientific, parascientific, philosophical and theological

 

[Commander Birdsong]

That's not the way logic or science work for me, though, Bill. Logic is merciless and science is extremely careful. Neither of them is into giving preferential status to default assumptions and declaring that everything else bears a 'burden of proof'. That's a concept of human law courts, not logic or science.

If something's unproven either way, then it's tenable to consider it false, but also tenable to consider it true. There's nothing insane about believing something that isn't proven. The sad truth is that virtually nothing important is really proven.

I'm not trying to defend Scientology. I sympathize with the desire to beat it with the biggest stick at hand. I'm saying that this 'burden of proof' theory is a bad stick to pick. It looks heavy but it's flimsier than it looks. There are lots of better weapons.

very nice...

very very nice...

how about a thread where all posters must be starrated on this post moderated by a qual sec who can send to cramming anyone whose post displays ignorance of it?

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Nice bit of logic juggling. In terms of pure logic, it's not bad but really you're missing the point.

The person making the claims has the sole burden of proving those claims. There is no other logical option. To insist that someone else must disprove those claims or else they should be assumed true is ... sorry ... insane.

Bill

sales pitches are sales pitches

all that mattered to me was CoS claimed it would deliver X service for Y exchange

i did and they did

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: to Freethinker and Adam

In the Netherlands "talk"theraphy has been booted out of the healthcare package for not being effective. Lots of Psycho analists and psychiatrists were upset.

The auditing process goes deeper and is more methodical stripped from Hubbards own case and religious mumbo jumbo. My aim is to have it tested more than it was as T.I.R, in Meta Psychology.

My aims are to have it meet up with brainplasticity and EMDR wich is now in the Dutch healthcare package because it works. Imagine that an ofshoot from dianetics/psychology that works. Alsoo the University of Winsconsin has my Intrest because it works with the Dalai Lama on brainplasticity.

You can nag, but isn't it better to do the scientific thing as you said.

ahhh...

the body politic of the netherlands might be at least 4% conservative

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Much of internet debate seems to hinge on SCIENCE. Let's all put science on a pedestal and worship its infallibility.

Science basically boils down to how to know and is a collection of guidelines for knowing.

Ok, what do you really need to know? I don't need to know a lot about cars to get from here to Albuquerque. But, a lot of science and engineering went into making my cars.

I don't need to know the underlying truths as to why I love my wife and kids. I don't need to know the science of interrelations to know I enjoy the hell out of my friends.

Even though I go through life using and benefitting greatly from the products of science and engineering (it's going to be 99 today and I sure love that air conditioning coming from the vent) I don't spend much time thinking about what truths went into these things.

When I come out of yoga feeling a blissful glow, I don't wonder about whether yoga has any basis in science. I'm just happy to be happy.

When I talk to friends who practice Buddhism and see how much peace they feel from the subject, I don't wonder what scientific basis there is or whether what they feel has any objective basis. I'm just happy for them.

I had a lot of fun in Scientology. Just because I hate the fucking Church doesn't gainsay or negate those experiences. I had a lot of fun in courses, studying scientology. I think I learned to communicate better, to study better, to have better control of my life, to handle problems better, to not get so upset with others over disagreements, to not feel compelled to be right or make others wrong.:confused2:

Yet, I've also read about the horrors, the destruction of lives, the criminality. I've learned what a monster Hubbard could be.

So, do I take my experiences and toss them out the window, lamenting every moment of my involvement?

Nope. I enjoyed the people I met. I had fun with them and learned things with them.

If science is so great, why are so many scientists miserable? Having high mathematical/logical intelligence doesn't necessarily translate into high emotional, creative interpersonal intelligence.

Science is a recapitulation of that high mathematical/logical intelligence. But science doesn't produce symphonies, nor exceptional painters, nor great dancers.

Science is only a minor element in why we are what we are.

Scientology without compassion created a hell. So would science without compassion.

If CB wants to believe what he wants to believe, more power to him. Life is too precious and fun to waste it nitpicking one another over nuances of agreement.

We all agree the CofS needs to be brought down. That's a useful, beneficial agreement. Why? Because of the abuse and criminality of the church and it's members. I could really care less whether someone wants to believe in body thetans, or whether they think that auditing works or not.

All this bickering over nothing.

Geesh.

there have been several "matters of concern" shall we say...

and there's been a lot of whining weenies


and we don't all agree it needs to be brought down

and

it ain't gonna come down

maybe the nerds will piss all virtues away and it will just continue as a worthless piece of shit but the subject is hot pazooties if men and women of good will make it hot pazooties

 

[AnonKat]

Re: to Freethinker and Adam

ahhh...

the body politic of the netherlands might be at least 4% conservative

We had social (not in a political sense) psychiatry since Jacobus Schroeder van der kolk

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier...k-1797-1862-his-resistance-against-Z1WBnkP2qr

And our doctors defied Nazism as they did Big pharma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496966/

The physicians of Holland unanimously rejected this seemingly banal Nazi order, turned in their medical licenses, and remained adamant even after 100 doctors were sent to concentration camps. They insisted that the patient-doctor relationship is private, not public; they refused the Nazi utilitarian ideology that valued prevention and rehabilitation for productive labor over caring, and that justified “the mass extermination of the chronically sick in the interest of saving ‘useless’ expenses to the community as a whole.”1 Having balked at this first, small step, not a single Dutch physician subsequently participated in euthanasia or nontherapeutic sterilization.

English people laugh at us but we took down 400 german planes in 4 days preventing Hitler to jump to england after that

 

[Commander Birdsong]

But this is bizarre. You want to introduce new logical axioms that only apply for the specific case of Scientology? If you're willing to do that, it seems unnecessarily complicated to take these assumptions about who has the burden of proof. They're not self-consistent in general, but if all you want to do is deny Scientology, why not just drop them in favor of immediately assuming that Scientology is false, and be done with it?

I thought you were trying to argue that Scientology is false, based on assumptions that are generally valid. I was pointing out that you haven't actually done that, because your claims about burdens of proof that make unproven claims automatically false don't make sense as being generally valid. You appealed to logic, but logic doesn't do what you want. If all you really want to do is make special claims that only apply to Scientology, why mention logic?

I'm arguing with you precisely because I think Scientology is bad. I am not trying to find a leg for Scientologists to stand on. But I think it only helps smart people stay trapped in Scientology if they hear arguments against Scientology that are really bad.

man scientology ain't bad

scienology is BAAAAD baby, i mean like chopped harley BAAAAAAAAD...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: to Freethinker and Adam

We had social (not in a political sense) psychiatry since Jacobus Schroeder van der kolk

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier...k-1797-1862-his-resistance-against-Z1WBnkP2qr

And our doctors defied Nazism as they did Big pharma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1496966/




English people laugh at us but we took down 400 german planes in 4 days preventing Hitler to jump to england after that

i don't know which english people are laughing at you but none of the troops who landed at gold and/or juno alongside the free dutch troops are among them

something like 25-40% of contemporary english polled believed churchill's war time radio litanies of resistance are fake

be scared...

be very very scared...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

whew...

that's today's in basket...

i'm off for a snack...

 

[Free Being Me]

It's truly sad to witness anyone deluded by Elcon, instilled with his prefabricated mental illness called $cientology. What's even sadder is contrary to the many deaths and anguished lives left in it's wake that are a matter of public record, is the gleeful posturing of those indoctrinated still in denial.

 

[Mojo]

It's truly sad to witness anyone deluded by Elcon, instilled with his prefabricated mental illness called $cientology. What's even sadder is contrary to the many deaths and anguished lives left in it's wake that are a matter of public record, is the gleeful posturing of those indoctrinated still in denial.

That is true FreeBeing. And, what seems to escape the intellectual grasp of even the most gifted amongst us, is the context of scientology relative to a timeless spiritual being experiencing themselves as being a human being in time.

Just because Hubbard was a madman and a con doesn't mean that we are not eternal spiritual beings temporarily appearing in human form. And if that statement is true, and it is true, the missing context I speak of is axiomatic.

We seem sometimes to be like butterflies that cannot help but curse our caterpillar heritage.

mojo

 

[Commander Birdsong]

It's truly sad to witness anyone deluded by Elcon, instilled with his prefabricated mental illness called $cientology. What's even sadder is contrary to the many deaths and anguished lives left in it's wake that are a matter of public record, is the gleeful posturing of those indoctrinated still in denial.

good afternoon, poster-who-may-not-be-named

may i offer you a glass of iced tea?

if you don't mind my asking, do you make anything resembling an honest attempt to read anything i have written on this thread?


well...

no indication the-poster-who-may-not-be-named read this post is there?

in fact slim pickin's in this morning's posts; few CB posts with someone hitting the reply with quote button and giving some life to a conversation

guess i'm a pretty dangerous guy hunh?

don't dare ask CB sensible questions because he comes back strong as in the response to the challenge and the answers to the half dozen questions

no...

don't give CB no chance to engage; don't give CB the time of day...

just hurl the familiar spew all over the thread and run off claiming THE SAME TOTAL VICTORY THE NATTERING NABOBS OF NEGATIVISM HAVE BEEN CLAIMING SINCE THE AUTUMN OF 1950!!!

it's nothing...

it's maybe some placebo effect; hypnosis! that's what it is! it's all hypnosis! he he's nothing but a con man. he's had his fifteen minutes of fame; it'll just disappear before the brooklyn dodgers get back to ebbets from spring training...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

library closing

hasta manana...

 

[Panda Termint]

Well, of course. Anecdotal "evidence" isn't worth spit no matter what is said.

But then your statement edges into "shifting the burden of proof". It isn't up to anyone to prove that Scientology technology doesn't do what Hubbard promised. That's not just silly, it's stupid. The burden of proof for any and all of Hubbard's claims lies solely with Hubbard and any of his followers who continue to make the same claims. Period.

When Hubbard and his followers fail to prove his claims, his claims may be rightfully be considered false. That's the way logic and science works. One would not logically consider unproven claims to be true - that is insane.

Bill

Right! That's why I inserted my commentary into this thread. In challenge of Adam's assertions that auditing doesn't work. I don't think claims that "no auditing works" are insane, just uninformed. That is the only reason I asked about his actual involvement in auditing/training, I wondered if his claims were based on actual experience rather than anecdotal testimony.

BTW, in both my opinion and experience, scientology doesn't ever do what Hubbard promised it would, never has and never will. That doesn't mean it doesn't do something! (An old joke revisited )
PS: Oops, sorry, I just caught up with everything written after the post I was responding to. I didn't realise the argument was already over!

 

[freethinker]

Re: to Freethinker and Adam

OK

I think some of you don't understand my stance.

In the first place, the floorwax/dessert topping "strawman" does not exist. It's actually a bit of a meme. A popular somewhat desirory (albeit good natured) comment critics on alt.religion.scientology used to make to poke fun at the cult's attempt to always be all things to all people in their pr. I was making a joking allusion to that. I was being jovial. No need to get uptight.

Second place, I'm not saying it (auditing) is or isn't good for you. I think anecdotal evidence is exactly that. Anecdotal. However, much of the "proof" that psychology based talk therapy and also New Age methods are helpful are also just as anecdotal. So that and 4 bux will get you a not very good latte at Starbucks.

Most attestations re gains of therapy are anecdotal. And I'm cool with that.

I do not think that the gains that people feel they get from Scn and Dn cannot be gotten elsewhere, though I think, as a metaphysical student (as I am) that one would probably get a different sort of effect from something else. Not worse or anything- I don't mean that. I just mean that it would be different.

I can attest to the fact that auditing was very helpful to me when my folks died. My FZ auditor (since I had a galloping pulse rate) took my pulse rate (her kids had given her a device so she had it handy and I'd told her what was going on) before and after the auditing intensive. Not that I needed her to. But she did and we could see that I had calmed the fuck down.

Now would I have calmed the fuck down so well if I'd done a bunch of meditation and talked to a really great Buddhist priest instead? Probably!!! But as it happens, that's not what I did. So it worked out. And other stuff might have- and very probably would have- helped me as much.

But guess what. The evidence that the meditation would have helped me also would have been anecdotal.

It seems to me that anecdotal evidence that something- in this case auditing (or could have been TRs or other Scn methods) is negative are accepted by some here without anyone pointing out that it's anecdotal. Yet if there's anecdotal evidence that the person claiming such thought it was great, then that's regarded differently.

Anecdotal is anecdotal.

I think a problem with Hub and Scn theory is that one size fits all. That all "cases" would run the same way. That we all have the same implants. That everyone's going to do well with, say, running out problems on Grade II (my favorite grade). I think Hubbard was wrong in this.

I am sure that most Scientologists- in or out of CofS- would disagree with what I've just said here, but after years in and then years out, doing FZ stuff, not doing FZ stuff, toeing the cult party line, ditching it- this is what I feel I've observed.

(guess what. That was anecdotal.-- sorry, couldn't resist pointing that out)

I trust that clarifies- no pun intended- my position. So you can stop misrepresenting me now and perhaps address me with a bit more amicability, I hope.

 

[freethinker]

One just did.

I'd just like to point out that no self respecting pedant would ever refer to a duchess or a fucking musket while using the board game Clue to illustrate a point.

 

[AnonKat]

Re: to Freethinker and Adam

i don't know which english people are laughing at you but none of the troops who landed at gold and/or juno alongside the free dutch troops are among them

something like 25-40% of contemporary english polled believed churchill's war time radio litanies of resistance are fake

be scared...

be very very scared...

Stupid fucks. oh I will defend auditing but i will not stand for capitalism pure seck

EDIT: this band is dutch


[video=youtube;jeLbaXYw5qU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeLbaXYw5qU&list=PLEAE9910190A280FA[/video]