Formerly known as Sally Dannce

[Glenda]

I got too emotional to say much, but this I can, thank you for your post. I know too well the pain of childless by circumstance, and the cult play a big part on it.

You are one brave wonderful woman. I can only hope to be half as brave as you. Tears don't let me see.. and the heart hurts too. Much love.

I am so sorry this has happened to you also. I'll sit quietly with you as the tears roll. We can share a box of tissues.

I don't feel brave. I feel a lot of things, but brave isn't one of them.

 

[Free to shine]

Only people who have been truly immersed in the belly of the beast understand what it can take to reconcile all the issues raised, to slowly find ways forward and to hold your head up at the same time. And it takes a lot of courage to talk about it.

Here's to courage and peace and brave new starts.

 

[HappyGirl]

. . .
This is hard to write, really hard to write. But I will write it because this is a ramification of cult life, of blind cult devotion, that I have yet to hear/read anyone discuss.

Until you brought it up, I had not realized there was anything to discuss. I had never blamed the cult for my childlessness, but you made me realize that I would definitely have had children if I had not been in the cult. Looking back, it now seems probable that one pregnant mother changed her mind about giving us her baby when she found out we were Scios. But even if not, my mind was controlled to think that clearing the planet was more important than having kids, anyway.

This also brought to mind the time my husband told me I would never be whole, or never be fully a woman, because I had never been a mother. I was so hurt I never thought about it again until now, and it’s too late to tell him this, but thinking about that now I realize where he was coming from. His mother died when he was only a year old. He had never been held as a baby, and never really bonded with the human race properly. He broke my heart in some college health class we were doing when he asked me “what good does it do me to know I’ve lost my formative years when there’s nothing I can do about it to correct it?” So, now I realize that what he really had meant was that he could relate to my never really knowing what it would be like to be a mother because he never knew what it was like to have a mother. I also realize that had I not been a Scio, I would have suggested that he get counseling, which we may have even been able to get (or get help to find) at the college where we were doing the health class. Duh! And who knows? Maybe counseling could have helped me, too. My mother died when I was 10 and I have been informally “adopting” mothers and daughters my whole life.

This also brought to mind a stuck picture that plagues me, that I had been convinced was a previous life, of a sad, lonely woman looking out her window at a bright sunny day that she wasn’t a part of. Now I realize it is just my picture symbolizing my worst fear of growing old and alone. I was so afraid of growing old and alone that I made lots of new friends to hopefully grow old with, and learned they were all afraid of growing old and alone, too. We’re all human with the same fears.

So yeah, cults prey on those fears and magnify them, all while keeping us from pursuing our dreams and connecting to our fellow humans.

 

[catarina]

I don't feel brave. I feel a lot of things, but brave isn't one of them.

I don't know what feeling brave feels like. Whenever I do brave things, I usually feel scared out of my wits or something like that. Let's say that you are acting very bravely.

There is no way I can know how it feels to be in your situation, I was lucky enough to have children. But I am completely enraged at Hubbard and Miscavige for actively destroying countless families in oh so many ways. They were/are both totally useless at family life, how could they even dare to dictate to others how to live.

Probably the most harrowing moment for me after I left was reading about the SO children. I was not in the SO myself, but my ex had been and wanted to go back, we just had some debts to take care of. Oh, how I love those debts now! After all these years, I still cry when I think of my babies possibly growing up in the Cadet org.

And not just mistreating the kids that existed, but stealing all the babies that could have been... It's sick, sick, sick!

Thank you for speaking, Glenda. Since my circumstances allowed it, I used my real name from the beginning, back on ARS in the late 1990's. It's understandably not for everyone, but it feels liberating.

 

[Glenda]

Until you brought it up, I had not realized there was anything to discuss. I had never blamed the cult for my childlessness, but you made me realize that I would definitely have had children if I had not been in the cult. Looking back, it now seems probable that one pregnant mother changed her mind about giving us her baby when she found out we were Scios. But even if not, my mind was controlled to think that clearing the planet was more important than having kids, anyway.

This also brought to mind the time my husband told me I would never be whole, or never be fully a woman, because I had never been a mother. I was so hurt I never thought about it again until now, and it’s too late to tell him this, but thinking about that now I realize where he was coming from. His mother died when he was only a year old. He had never been held as a baby, and never really bonded with the human race properly. He broke my heart in some college health class we were doing when he asked me “what good does it do me to know I’ve lost my formative years when there’s nothing I can do about it to correct it?” So, now I realize that what he really had meant was that he could relate to my never really knowing what it would be like to be a mother because he never knew what it was like to have a mother. I also realize that had I not been a Scio, I would have suggested that he get counseling, which we may have even been able to get (or get help to find) at the college where we were doing the health class. Duh! And who knows? Maybe counseling could have helped me, too. My mother died when I was 10 and I have been informally “adopting” mothers and daughters my whole life.

This also brought to mind a stuck picture that plagues me, that I had been convinced was a previous life, of a sad, lonely woman looking out her window at a bright sunny day that she wasn’t a part of. Now I realize it is just my picture symbolizing my worst fear of growing old and alone. I was so afraid of growing old and alone that I made lots of new friends to hopefully grow old with, and learned they were all afraid of growing old and alone, too. We’re all human with the same fears.

So yeah, cults prey on those fears and magnify them, all while keeping us from pursuing our dreams and connecting to our fellow humans.

Dearest HappyGirl,

I just wish we could sit together and quietly talk. Thank you for sharing the above.

It terrifies me the thought of growing old alone. I try to not think about it. The psych I see, we talk about this stuff. Lately he's been right-on-the-mark with his knowledge of cultic systems. I honestly thought I wasn't whole, wasn't a "real woman" because of what happened during my marriage/the cult years. The two things (marriage and being part of the cult) were intrinsically connected (does that make sense?). I was merely a cog in the system. So much is shut down when one is blindly devoted to the masked madness of others.

Like you, my mind was controlled to think that saving the planet was more important than having children. Pfff!

The past few years I have deliberately been around children to try to face all this. One day I was reading a story to a little boy. He was so so sweet. We'd snuggled up on a sofa with a book and were interacting about the story. He drifted off into a beautiful dialogue about his family's dog and his baby sister. I could smell his hair - it was so delicious. His voice was so pure. There was all this trust and love between us. Then he did what small boys do and ran off to play outside with his friends. I watched him, completely embraced by the moment of perfect love and trust. I knew in those moments how much love I had held back because of not having my own children. I think that's the hardest thing, all this love and never letting it out. So that's the aim, to find ways to give love to the world. And I stuff it up, often.

The cult years were so loveless. So plastic. So fake. I thought I would wither up and die without any love. And then I went to China and there was all this quiet meaningful love. It woke me up. People showed me unconditional love in so many ways. Like the time the woman up the lane from where I lived knitted me a hat because she had noticed I liked to wear hats. God! She was so poor and she would do that for me? I remember walking home down the lane, with my new hat, tears streaming down my face. So alive with tears of joy and love.

I left a loveless cult life to begin to build a new imperfect life, full of love and kindness and real trust. I've had to define what love means to me, what trust is, what living a life without any hidden agendas means. People get confused by that. Their own fears form a protective barrier around them. And I understand that because I lived most of my adult life hiding behind a synthetic cult mask.

I really like this HappyGirl:

So yeah, cults prey on those fears and magnify them, all while keeping us from pursuing our dreams and connecting to our fellow humans.

The cult leads us away from our own loving hearts, to participate in weird agendas. It leads us away from our authentic selves, thinking that we have all the answers to life, to eternity. Maybe that’s the “big lesson” for me (one of many?), contrasting a loveless life and learning how to live a truly loving life. Being childless is only one aspect of that, admittedly a fairly large aspect, but only one part of living a truly meaningful full rich loving life. The complete opposite to how those in scientology live.

I have so much in my life to be grateful for.

Warm love to you HappyGirl,
Glenda

 

[Glenda]

I don't know what feeling brave feels like. Whenever I do brave things, I usually feel scared out of my wits or something like that. Let's say that you are acting very bravely.

There is no way I can know how it feels to be in your situation, I was lucky enough to have children. But I am completely enraged at Hubbard and Miscavige for actively destroying countless families in oh so many ways. They were/are both totally useless at family life, how could they even dare to dictate to others how to live.

Probably the most harrowing moment for me after I left was reading about the SO children. I was not in the SO myself, but my ex had been and wanted to go back, we just had some debts to take care of. Oh, how I love those debts now! After all these years, I still cry when I think of my babies possibly growing up in the Cadet org.

And not just mistreating the kids that existed, but stealing all the babies that could have been... It's sick, sick, sick!

Thank you for speaking, Glenda. Since my circumstances allowed it, I used my real name from the beginning, back on ARS in the late 1990's. It's understandably not for everyone, but it feels liberating.

Dearest Catarina,
Thank you for this.

Yeah "feeling brave" is like standing on the edge of an indefinable place, heart racing, stomach churning, nerve-endings raw and doing it anyway because the alternative feels even worse.

It is sick to think of all the babies not born because of this warped para-military cult. Sick and disturbing. The hypocrisy that the cult indulges in on this issue makes my blood boil. It makes me feel like some sort of fierce feminine warrior. It makes me want to do things that aren't pretty or sweet. I want to scream out "where is the fucking justice in all this?"

The idealist in me wants justice. I think its part of my anger (grief). There probably will never be any direct justice for all the babies never born because of the insanity dished out by the cult of scientology, though I hope I am wrong on this point.

Hubbard didn't have a clue about family. Or love. Or compassion. Or kindness. He lacked so many vital decent human qualities. And the reality is to be a "good scientologist" one has to adopt that identity, to some extent.

Waking up from that isn't easy. It's not like a switch is hit and yay, the love and compassion and kindness shines through. Awakening is a layered process. Well it has been for me at least.

I'm so glad you had debts.

Warm love to you
Glenda

 

[HappyGirl]

Dearest HappyGirl,

I just wish we could sit together and quietly talk. Thank you for sharing the above.

I want to come to New Zealand and do just that!

It terrifies me the thought of growing old alone. I try to not think about it. The psych I see, we talk about this stuff. Lately he's been right-on-the-mark with his knowledge of cultic systems. I honestly thought I wasn't whole, wasn't a "real woman" because of what happened during my marriage/the cult years. The two things (marriage and being part of the cult) were intrinsically connected (does that make sense?). I was merely a cog in the system. So much is shut down when one is blindly devoted to the masked madness of others.

I never mention my first two marriages because they were "cult marriages." I have no other way to explain them. They weren't "real," they puzzled my friends and family, and I'm embarrassed by them. I just consider my late husband (the one that got me out!) to be my only real marriage. I guess I can admit that here.

Oh, and I had meant to mention that I was so afraid of growing old and alone, that might be what had gotten me into Scio in the first place, mistaking it for a community of humans.

Maybe that’s the “big lesson” for me (one of many?), contrasting a loveless life and learning how to live a truly loving life. Being childless is only one aspect of that, admittedly a fairly large aspect, but only one part of living a truly meaningful full rich loving life. The complete opposite to how those in scientology live.

I have so much in my life to be grateful for.

Warm love to you HappyGirl,
Glenda

That was the lesson for me. Just give love. That, and also to let go (allow love in). Yes, there is so much to be grateful for! Love to you too!

 

[catarina]

The cult years were so loveless. So plastic. So fake. I thought I would wither up and die without any love. And then I went to China and there was all this quiet meaningful love. It woke me up. People showed me unconditional love in so many ways. Like the time the woman up the lane from where I lived knitted me a hat because she had noticed I liked to wear hats. God! She was so poor and she would do that for me? I remember walking home down the lane, with my new hat, tears streaming down my face. So alive with tears of joy and love.

I left a loveless cult life to begin to build a new imperfect life, full of love and kindness and real trust. I've had to define what love means to me, what trust is, what living a life without any hidden agendas means. People get confused by that. Their own fears form a protective barrier around them. And I understand that because I lived most of my adult life hiding behind a synthetic cult mask.

(Well, I could choose any part of your post to comment upon, there is so much that touches me, but I will go with this.)

Even after leaving the cult, and leaving my cult-based marriage, I thought that my value as a human being was depending on superficial production. Was I upstat in whatever area I was active in? Making friends wasn't that hard, but each friend only got a sliver of me. I was able to care of my children, which I'm immensely grateful for, but otherwise I was a shadow figure.

My wake-up moment was when I had crashed completely, due to several physical and psychological reasons, and wound up in a psychiatric hospital. I was afraid, of course, but some patients who were considered psychotic were so genuinely nice to me. They were crazy, DBs, Type 3, and yet I fel so much safer with them than with those SO uniforms in the basement of CLO EU. Who were the most ethical ones? Oh, I forgot, in the cult definition of ethics there is no mention of love.

 

[catarina]

I never mention my first two marriages because they were "cult marriages." I have no other way to explain them. They weren't "real," they puzzled my friends and family, and I'm embarrassed by them. I just consider my late husband (the one that got me out!) to be my only real marriage. I guess I can admit that here.

Oh, that's it! I haven't been able to quite put a label on it. I don't mean disrespect to my first husband, but the whole thing was completely strange from the start. If he had not been in the SO we might have dated one night and that would have been it, we were so incompatible.

My current marriage is a "real" marrige, and that is a very different story.

 

[Glenda]

I want to come to New Zealand and do just that!

- quote snipped -

I never mention my first two marriages because they were "cult marriages." I have no other way to explain them. They weren't "real," they puzzled my friends and family, and I'm embarrassed by them. I just consider my late husband (the one that got me out!) to be my only real marriage. I guess I can admit that here.


- quote snipped -

That was the lesson for me. Just give love. That, and also to let go (allow love in). Yes, there is so much to be grateful for! Love to you too!

Yes! Come visit me in New Zealand. Yes!

I had another "cult marriage" too. I seldom talk about that either. It only lasted about 3 years - he went to join the sea org, I stayed in NZ to "bust psychs". So casual - and like you say, puzzling to friends and family.

You write "...and also to let go (allow love in)."

Do mean romantic love or love as a moment-to-moment experience on a daily basis – or both?

 

[HappyGirl]

Yes! Come visit me in New Zealand. Yes!

I will!!

I had another "cult marriage" too. I seldom talk about that either. It only lasted about 3 years - he went to join the sea org, I stayed in NZ to "bust psychs". So casual - and like you say, puzzling to friends and family.

Wow, really?! Maybe we should start a "cult marriage" thread. As usual, I thought I was the only one.

You write "...and also to let go (allow love in)."

Do mean romantic love or love as a moment-to-moment experience on a daily basis – or both?

I meant letting go of trying, while letting it all in - love, pain, heartache, inspiration, wonder, and all your dreams.

 

[Glenda]

I will!!
- snipped quotes -
Wow, really?! Maybe we should start a "cult marriage" thread. As usual, I thought I was the only one.
- quote snipped -

I meant letting go of trying, while letting it all in - love, pain, heartache, inspiration, wonder, and all your dreams.

Cult marriages are weird. In the next breath I question the whole subject of the marriage union. I confess to feeling out of sync with how I was raised and what I observe in my culture. I don't dislike the concept of marriage but nor do I like it. I see people living in misery, for reasons that make no sense to me any longer. I see the masks and the pretense. I see the numbed fear which forms the fragile glue. I see the merging to try to avoid so many things. I see the cracks where the light is trying to shine through. Maybe I am merely confused and protective and ambivalent. That is a real possibility but after having inspected the issues of cultic marriage, I see a lot of similarities in many "real world" marriages. Dodgy power and control shifts, boundary violations every which way and individuality diluted in the shallow lake of passionless love. Cynical? Probably.

Hmmm, letting it all go while simultaneously feeling/experiencing it all...you bring a refreshing reflection. Very nice.

Okay, shifting gears here...

Campaign to entice you to NZ.

Getting the photo album out and moving off the tourism trail.

Real NZ:

Close to where the sun first hits land (East Coast, North Island).
We are the first in the world to see the new day. It is magic.
All you have to do is breathe.

Lots of wine. Lots of vineyards.

A beautiful small girl and Bruce, the old retired farm
dog, gathering walnuts together.

Luna the lab and friend enjoying morning sun together.

Twilight and tranquillity caressing.

 

[Lurker5]

I am on that 'same page', Glenda, and my marriage was all wog . . . I became an observer. Or maybe I always was.

One thing for sure, marriage sure does dispel the romantic notion/novels/movies about 'love'. Explodes it. Into 'red mist'.

:confused2:

 

[The_Fixer]

Awful lot of rain in NZ. Just mention "BBQ" and you'll have rain for a week (that's the Kiwi version of the Rain Dance).

They have patios without roofs there. No one sits out there cos it's always too cold outside.

Some days, the sun even forgets to visit!!

The natives are know to break into spontaneous Hakas (the actual Haka starts at 1.39) just about anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vxy_-e_hZ8

Great for when you finally just got the baby to sleep.....

♪ ♫ God defend New Zealand, land of boiling mud....♫ ♪
♪ ♫ God defend Australia, you can't live in boiling mud! ♫ ♪ (A lot of Kiwis move to Australia).

But I kid everyone here.

It is a land of splendid contrasts, the weather is quite temperate (depends where you are) and the scenery can be absolutely spectacular.

The people are generally warm and hospitable and very down to earth. Usually proud to speak to you about their country and culture.

The Maoris love their music and singing, there is nearly always one at a party with a guitar and after a couple of beers all around the party warms up well with a great group singalong

Did I mention their Hangis? A great social gathering favourite over there, always great eating.

You got to get there. It will be an unforgettable experience.

Hopefully by now Glenda has put away her drawing and quartering equipment intended for me.

Did I reedeem myself?

 

[Glenda]

I've got one word for you The_Fixer:

Porridge.

I'll write more when I've finishing eating it.

 

[The_Fixer]

Sounds like something worse than drawing and quartering awaits me!

 

[The_Fixer]

Oh, I did forget to mention something.

When over there, do not, repeat, do not mention the rain! The natives tend to get a little sensitive about it.

Kevin Sorbo, AKA Hercules on that unmentionable TV series filmed the show over there. During an interview, he was asked how he liked NZ.

Lovely, lovely, lovely, etc, etc, etc. Then he said "It rains a lot here..."

He wasn't very popular over there for a while after that.

I saw that on a TV interview with him. He remarked that's how he found out they could be a little sensitive about outsiders mentioning the weather there, lol.

 

[The_Fixer]

I am on that 'same page', Glenda, and my marriage was all wog . . . I became an observer. Or maybe I always was.

One thing for sure, marriage sure does dispel the romantic notion/novels/movies about 'love'. Explodes it. Into 'red mist'.

:confused2:

Too true.

Sometimes I think we all rush into marriage with highly unrealistic expectations of each other and an overblown idea of "romance".

Who we are at 18, 30 50 are often 3 very different people. If you grow and change together, it can work quite well. The problems kick in when we go in different directions.

My 1st wife was on her best behaviour when we were dating. One month into our marriage, that faded off. There were signs, sure, but I was too naive at the time to notice them. Long story.

I have re married and have a far better relationship. Life has a habit of getting in the way and putting little wedges in everywhere. Takes a lot of work to keep that little fire you share burning.

I never got into a cult marriage, so I'm not qualified to say much there. But I do know the cult seriously twisted our thinking and a lot decisions and actions we undertook were highly questionable.

Little wonder most of them were doomed from the get go.

 

[Glenda]

Awful lot of rain in NZ. Just mention "BBQ" and you'll have rain for a week.

They have patios without roofs there. No one sits out there cos it's always too cold outside.

Some days, the sun even forgets to visit!!

The natives are know to break into spontaneous Hakas (the actual Haka starts at 1.39) just about anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vxy_-e_hZ8

Great for when you finally just got the baby to sleep.....

♪ ♫ God defend New Zealand, land of boiling mud....♫ ♪
♪ ♫ God defend Australia, you can't live in boiling mud! ♫ ♪ (A lot of Kiwis move to Australia).

But I kid everyone here.

It is a land of splendid contrasts, the weather is quite temperate (depends where you are) and the scenery can be absolutely spectacular.

The people are generally warm and hospitable and very down to earth. Usually proud to speak to you about their country and culture.

The Maoris love their music and singing, there is nearly always one at a party with a guitar and after a couple of beers all around the party warms up well with a great group singalong

Did I mention their Hangis? A great social gathering favourite over there, always great eating.

You got to get there. It will be an unforgettable experience.

Hopefully by now Glenda has put away her drawing and quartering equipment intended for me.

Did I reedeem myself?

You had me really worried going on about rain and it being "too cold" and stupid shit like that. I was about to set the Tourism Board dogs on you - [STRIKE]or drag out the rant about Peter (Jackson) and Ed (Hillary) and my cousin who makes really damn nice coffee tables in his car-shed. His man-cave is way cool (the cousins, not sure about Peter's, never been in it). Many a good night has been spent in this man-cave sitting around a plastic table drinking beer - they drag the barbeque into the shed if it rains (kiwi men are practical). You gotta love the kiwi blokes shed culture. It rocks! [/STRIKE]

Thankfully I stayed strong and read on so found no need for the bit about Pete, Ed and my cousin.

Do not force me to ask you how long it has been since you graced our fair shores. You ran away all those years ago and it's been decided we don't want you back because you probably have an Aussie accent. However we would like back John Clarke, several musicians that went to Aust. and also forgot to come back, some of our sporting talent (only if they are still young and virile, the old one's can stay in Aust.) and any other useful people you care you send back (no cult members please, you can keep them).

Oh, oh, and while I'm at it, we would like a sincere apology about the Pavlova thing.

For those who have no idea what a pavlova is:

For the record, the Pavlova is a NEW ZEALAND thing. Can I prove this? No, but neither can the Aussies prove it was invented by them. So, we're taking the credit and the Aussies can just go drink tepid beer.

I'm starting to feel better about things (getting that pavlova thing off my chest has worked wonders). :wink2:

Therefore I redeem you The_Fixer. When are you going to paddle across the Tasman Sea and pay us a visit? Oh hang on, you guys have got airports now eh? Hey you could fly over. :wink2:

 

[Glenda]

Oh, I did forget to mention something.

When over there, do not, repeat, do not mention the rain! The natives tend to get a little sensitive about it.

Kevin Sorbo, AKA Hercules on that unmentionable TV series filmed the show over there. During an interview, he was asked how he liked NZ.

Lovely, lovely, lovely, etc, etc, etc. Then he said "It rains a lot here..."

He wasn't very popular over there for a while after that.

I saw that on a TV interview with him. He remarked that's how he found out they could be a little sensitive about outsiders mentioning the weather there, lol.

What. Do. You. Mean. We. Are. Sensitive. About. The. Rain?????

Bring me this Kevin whatever-his-name is! What would he know about rain anyway. What he is, some sort of weather expert? A meteorological genuis? It was probably someone watering their garden and he got confused. This can happen. We are not sensitive about rain levels. We are not!