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Mind Control and Personality Changes

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I recently read this article, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/sekten/mind1.html, which is older, but one of the more clear and to the point explanations I've read of the different ways scn uses mind control techniques on members.

I think I've mentioned in the past, scn always creeped me out to some extent and but it wasn't until the last couple of years lurking here, Mike's and Marty's blog and other places online that I really began to realize how incredibly corrupt and evil it is.

Lately (or, perhaps I'm just noticing it more, now) there's been a fair bit of talk about personalities change when someone leaves the cult. I find myself sitting across the breakfast table from Mr/s Blanky and wondering what is real and what is manufactured by the cult. And then I look at our history and wonder the same thing.

It seems to me, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, the natural personality of a person who's been abused with mind control techniques.... hardens. What I think I'm observing, now that I'm looking with intention, is a created habit of squishing ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and values into an "acceptable" paradigm. I'm struggling a little with finding the words to describe what I see..... it's as if authentic fluidity of personal thought and evolution are ..... narrowed, solidified, strangled..... hardened. Like those terrible pictures of women's feet that have been bound since birth.

Does that resonate with anyone?

Blanky
 
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Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology clears the "being" of any compassion, sympathy for others, and overall emotions except enthusiasm for anything Scientology does, releases, tells you to think, do, donate, be and of course, COB - one must have high admiration for COB or else.


An active died in the wool Scientologist is really in a state of confusion. If they were allowed to do Tubbs condition formula - they would find out that they are in a cult and the rest of the world is not in agreement with command intention. The rest of the world knows it is a cult and won't have anything to do with it.

I also noticed with some die hards that they don't like sex - it becomes repulsive in the cult - Scientology twists sex to a perverted act that one only does to procreate and there is no procreation of children - they get in the way of command intention to completely control members lives so they are feeding COB's insatiable appetite for money and power and lots of MEST!

As a side note - the active Scientologist must act in a way that suits the leader. Total submission no matter what! That is the difference between Scientology today verses when Hubbard was around. The member dramatizes the personality of the leader. They slowly go insane! There is no kindness even faked by Miscavige! At least ole Tubbs was kind to some people during his creation.

The admiration for Hubbard will slowly wane away because only a true narcissist can keep a cult of this magnitude alive. Miscavige is slowly boiling the frogs again - and Hubbard will be #2 because if it were not for COB - Scientology would not have these billions of dollars carefully hidden from view. Miscavige CREATED the bank accounts and that money is HIS!!

Miscavige is a full blown psychopath and narcissist. He has convinced himself that HE HAS SACRIFICED and worked HARDER than anyone else - even LRH! That is his grave mistake which will take him down shortly! Now that the IRS Tax Returns have been disclosed on the internet and Scientology IS sitting on BILLIONS of dollars - the IRS will be forced to shut them down! Tick Tock Tick Tock!

Miscavige needs to feed off of admiration of the minions below him. Everyone is to be used and abused to keep the leader leading.

Scientology strips the person's true identity and replaces it with the cult identity.
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
I recently read this article, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/sekten/mind1.html, which is older, but one of the more clear and to the point explanations I've read of the different ways scn uses mind control techniques on members.

I think I've mentioned in the past, scn always creeped me out to some extent and but it wasn't until the last couple of years lurking here, Mike's and Marty's blog and other places online that I really began to realize how incredibly corrupt and evil it is.

Lately (or, perhaps I'm just noticing it more, now) there's been a fair bit of talk about personalities change when someone leaves the cult. I find myself sitting across the breakfast table from Mr/s Blanky and wondering what is real and what is manufactured by the cult. And then I look at our history and wonder the same thing.

It seems to me, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, the natural personality of a person who's been abused with mind control techniques.... hardens. What I think I'm observing, now that I'm looking with intention, is a created habit of squishing ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and values into an "acceptable" paradigm. I'm struggling a little with finding the words to describe what I see..... it's as if authentic fluidity of personal thought and evolution are ..... narrowed, solidified, strangled..... hardened. Like those terrible pictures of women's feet that have been bound since birth.

Does that resonate with anyone?

Blanky


Some thoughts... I believe your query would benefit from widening the field of view, allow me...

The "natural personality of a person who has been abused hardens" - sadly true, but the abuse need just be abuse, either received or done to others...it doesn't need to include mind control, though those techniques do tend to help get otherwise good and rational humans to both willingly endure abuse as well as dish it out.

A sociopath only needs to believe they will PROFIT from the abusive activity to be willing to engage in it.

A normal person with a conscience must first be fooled into thinking that the abuse is the right thing to do or to endure.

-------------

Arnie Lerma
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
I recently read this article, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/sekten/mind1.html, which is older, but one of the more clear and to the point explanations I've read of the different ways scn uses mind control techniques on members.

I think I've mentioned in the past, scn always creeped me out to some extent and but it wasn't until the last couple of years lurking here, Mike's and Marty's blog and other places online that I really began to realize how incredibly corrupt and evil it is.

Lately (or, perhaps I'm just noticing it more, now) there's been a fair bit of talk about personalities change when someone leaves the cult. I find myself sitting across the breakfast table from Mr/s Blanky and wondering what is real and what is manufactured by the cult. And then I look at our history and wonder the same thing.

It seems to me, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, the natural personality of a person who's been abused with mind control techniques.... hardens. What I think I'm observing, now that I'm looking with intention, is a created habit of squishing ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and values into an "acceptable" paradigm. I'm struggling a little with finding the words to describe what I see..... it's as if authentic fluidity of personal thought and evolution are ..... narrowed, solidified, strangled..... hardened. Like those terrible pictures of women's feet that have been bound since birth.

Does that resonate with anyone?

Blanky

Oh yeh dear Blanky, you know it does and will mon. It cannot be but helped that any sort of deep turmoils, events, and trauma, and having your mind fucked around, can profoundly change certain aspects of your being, its like being slashed in the face on an ancient battlefield, some times you heal with just a nic on the chin to remind ya. Then there is a slightly deeper cut, a scar that may make you superficially unattractive to yourself, but it does not affect you in the long run. Deeper into battle, there are the deeper cuts, the giant pink war-scar one wears like an badge, and ones so deep that the nerves have been damage, and you smile outside your face cynically at the world.
Call it learning, call it wisdom, call it the effects of being burned, call it whatever you want, its the imprint of experience, the wear 'n' tear of existence on this place many of us call home, has been a given for many centuries, possibly millennia, think its pretty normal... We are always growing and learning, it is not just suddenly 'poof-an-complete', one thing I am very certain of is that change is a constant. :)

Just a wee Oggy thought thingy du-jour. I'd like to tackle this again from a different angle later, maybe when I'm more angry or something and not quite feeling so good....... :p :cheers:

:soapbox: :treadmill:
:keelover:
:aliengreeting:

:dance3: :dance3: :dance3:
 
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Yes, I think involvement with the mind control of scientology deadens the emotions - that is what all the TRs are for, aren't they? - and sucks out the person's humanity. Kind of like the dementors in the Harry Potter books.

Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind approach takes this into account by asking family and friends to help the victim of a dangerous mind control cult get in touch with their authentic, pre-cult self. The cult indoctrinates the cult member into thinking that they were a loser before joining, and all the positive parts of them are due to their involvement with the cult. Remind them of their good traits before they joined - humor, compassion, leadership - for example, "remember when you were little you always were kind to others…" The cult also makes them phobic about the outside world, so make your time with them safe and kind, reminding them of the good in the world.

I think it is very difficult to help someone overcome this mental abuse, but Hassan's website and book is worth checking out.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Scientology clears the "being" of any compassion, sympathy for others, and overall emotions except enthusiasm for anything Scientology does, releases, tells you to think, do, donate, be and of course, COB - one must have high admiration for COB or else. The admiration for Hubbard will slowly wane away because only a true narcissist can keep a cult of this magnitude alive and he feeds off of admiration of the minions below him. Everyone is to be used and abused to keep the leader leading.

Scientology strips the person's true identity and replaces it with the cult identity.

An active died in the wool Scientologist is really in a state of confusion. If they were allowed to do Tubbs condition formula - they would find out that they are in a cult and the rest of the world is not in agreement with command intention. The rest of the world knows it is a cult and won't have anything to do with it.

What was he/she like when you married her? Does he/she use the "loaded lingo" on you? What is he/she like now that he/she has had Scientology? You don't have to answer but I am curious if you care to share this info.

I also noticed with some die hards that they don't like sex - it becomes repulsive in the cult - Scientology twists sex to a perverted act that one only does to procreate and there is no procreation of children - they get in the way of command intention to completely control members lives so they are feeding COB's insatiable appetite for money and power and lots of MEST!

Compassion/empathy: I read that here, frequently. But I haven't found that to be the case. Or.... I haven't noticed it to be so. Mr/s Blanky is one of the kindest most generous people I know.

It's true about the enthusiasm for anything the cult does. Every event is a great time :ohmy: and we'd like to attend them all. But then s/he's that way about almost any activity someone suggests. S/he plays really nicely with others and pretty much game for just about anything. ..... mmmm ..... except for the time I suggested we should go talk to the Anon folks and see first hand what their gripe was. That.... didn't fly.

S/he was already in when we met which is why I'd like to understand how others experienced a change in personality, either personally or watching a loved one - if they did.

Funny you say that about sex. When we were first married s/he said s/he wasn't allowed to perform perverted .... no..... aberrated(?) sex acts. But then couldn't tell me what those might be. So I put away the whips and chains..... :biggrin: ....and the rest has been fine, I think. The usual ups and downs any long time couple has with stress and kids and time but certainly not an aversion. That would have been a deal killer for me.

The loaded lingo ..... yessssss ...... I'm sure s/he has. This is harder for me to get my head around. Words are my friends and my tool for discernment, judgement, decision making etc. Are there examples you could share? I find when I encounter obvious scn jargon I tend to look puzzled and ask for clarificiation "I don't understand that word in that context, could you expand a little?"

OTOH I'm not above using the jargon when it's to my benefit to create doubt or raise an issue. For example, we got a letter from Flag last week about taking the step up the Bridge to Nowhere. I mildly said it looked to me like the local org was being bypassed. S/he agreed.

Some thoughts... I believe your query would benefit from widening the field of view, allow me...

The "natural personality of a person who has been abused hardens" - sadly true, but the abuse need just be abuse, either received or done to others...it doesn't need to include mind control, though those techniques do tend to help get otherwise good and rational humans to both willingly endure abuse as well as dish it out.

A sociopath only needs to believe they will PROFIT from the abusive activity to be willing to engage in it.

A normal person with a conscience must first be fooled into thinking that the abuse is the right thing to do or to endure.

-------------

Arnie Lerma


Please do widen the view! I am very much looking for input from those who have been there.

Like many of us there is other abuse in the background. So, what I think I'm hearing you suggest is that the hardening/narrowing of the personality may very well have begun prior to involvement in scn? I wonder then if a background of dysfunction - or certain types of dysfunction - make one more susceptible to cult mind control.

Yes, I agree, those with a conscience are fooled. There are very few I've met either currently or previously in scn who are not good people wanting to make a difference.

Blanky
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Oh yeh dear Blanky, you know it does and will mon. It cannot be but helped that any sort of deep turmoils, events, and trauma, and having your mind fucked around, can profoundly change certain aspects of your being, its like being slashed in the face on an ancient battlefield, some times you heal with just a nic on the chin to remind ya. Then there is a slightly deeper cut, a scar that may make you superficially unattractive to yourself, but it does not affect you in the long run. Deeper into battle, there are the deeper cuts, the giant pink war-scar one wears like an badge, and ones so deep that the nerves have been damage, and you smile outside your face cynically at the world.
Call it learning, call it wisdom, call it the effects of being burned, call it whatever you want, its the imprint of experience, the wear 'n' tear of existence on this place many of us call home, has been a given for many centuries, possibly millennia, think its pretty normal... We are always growing and learning, it is not just suddenly 'poof-an-complete', one thing I am very certain of is that change is a constant. :)

Just a wee Oggy thought thingy du-jour. I'd like to tackle this again from a different angle later, maybe when I'm more angry or something and not quite feeling so good....... :p :cheers:

:soapbox: :treadmill:
:keelover:
:aliengreeting:

:dance3: :dance3: :dance3:

Yes, I agree. And it seems to me scn disallows the fluidity of change and evolution of a person. Beliefs are hardened into One Right True Way - even if those beliefs no longer make sense or serve the believer.


Yes, I think involvement with the mind control of scientology deadens the emotions - that is what all the TRs are for, aren't they? - and sucks out the person's humanity. Kind of like the dementors in the Harry Potter books.

Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind approach takes this into account by asking family and friends to help the victim of a dangerous mind control cult get in touch with their authentic, pre-cult self. The cult indoctrinates the cult member into thinking that they were a loser before joining, and all the positive parts of them are due to their involvement with the cult. Remind them of their good traits before they joined - humor, compassion, leadership - for example, "remember when you were little you always were kind to others…" The cult also makes them phobic about the outside world, so make your time with them safe and kind, reminding them of the good in the world.

I think it is very difficult to help someone overcome this mental abuse, but Hassan's website and book is worth checking out.

Yes, I appreciate Hassan's work quite a bit. It's been a while since I've looked at them. Previously I did so more in reference to career than home. I'll have to revisit them.

Ahhh.... good.... the TRs. I was hoping someone would bring up some experience with these. The article I posted in the OP was perhaps the first I've read that detailed so succinctly why these are mind control techniques. I guess I didn't know much about them other than TR 0.

Blanky
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good topic Blanky

Just a thought for the hour;

I think any ideology and 'culture' has a tendency to create a 'rut' into which one or many can live. It seems that the more an ideology or behaviour is acquired through experience and consumed to the exclusion of other lifestyles the more it takes on the colour if not DNA of a cult. That cultic formation and propagation and persistence is developed and further entrenched by not only repetition but also 'protected' from being escaped by thought stopping or enforcement as well as behaviour restriction and enforcement. A declaration of, it's the 'ONLY path' or way and 'in here' is the only appropriate and reasonable ideology and way to act, also leads to the inculcated habitual_self_and_other_views ongoing negation.

I do think there is much to be said about this susceptibility and I believe it lies to a large degree, but not completely, in a persons 'environment' during the formative years. I believe there is evidence of one to being able to say NO, yes from age 2, but I think it is never only around age 2 but all through youth and even beyond, and thus developing a strong sense of self in balance with a balanced view of acceptance of others right to same.

ETA I forgot to mention that Mike of Idenics does talk about some of this in his works and I although I am not fully conversant with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I believe the results I am hearing from its implementation show how conscious decision making accompanied by action can help one get out of just such ruts of behaviour or cultic thinking.
 
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Gib

Crusader
I recently read this article, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/sekten/mind1.html, which is older, but one of the more clear and to the point explanations I've read of the different ways scn uses mind control techniques on members.

I think I've mentioned in the past, scn always creeped me out to some extent and but it wasn't until the last couple of years lurking here, Mike's and Marty's blog and other places online that I really began to realize how incredibly corrupt and evil it is.

Lately (or, perhaps I'm just noticing it more, now) there's been a fair bit of talk about personalities change when someone leaves the cult. I find myself sitting across the breakfast table from Mr/s Blanky and wondering what is real and what is manufactured by the cult. And then I look at our history and wonder the same thing.

It seems to me, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, the natural personality of a person who's been abused with mind control techniques.... hardens. What I think I'm observing, now that I'm looking with intention, is a created habit of squishing ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and values into an "acceptable" paradigm. I'm struggling a little with finding the words to describe what I see..... it's as if authentic fluidity of personal thought and evolution are ..... narrowed, solidified, strangled..... hardened. Like those terrible pictures of women's feet that have been bound since birth.

Does that resonate with anyone?

Blanky

I'm beginning to believe hubbard used rhetorical writing to "mind control" people.

Hubbard learned rhetorical writing and practiced it well.

I just found this out recently and have been looking into it.

I read this letter by Hubbard to his Dean Wilbur who taught him rhetorical writing. Rhetorical writing is the art & science of persuasion by Arstole. Hubbard says auditing is an art & science. Hmmmmmm.

Here is the letter to Dean Wilbur in 1936
http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/dear-dean-wilbur/

This sentence hubbards says he is going to write a book, and use Dean Wilbur's rhetoric book:

"Do not allow this to upset you in any way. Put it down that I am a rebel, a nonconformist, anything. Some of these days I am going to set down these things in a book, and your rhetoric, very battered now, will be open on the desk beside me when I write it."

I never learned "rhetoric". I am having fantastic wins with getting familar with it from the viewpoint of seeing others use the 3 forms of persuasion which are ethos, pathos & logos, which are natural by the way. It's how we persuade whether we know it or not.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/

Why study rhetoric?

Answer: "Protects you from intellectual despotism. I had a classics professor that said, “Advertising is the tool of the despot.” That idea really stuck with me. Since ancient times, powerful men have used propaganda to maintain control over their subjects. According to my professor, advertising is just a benign name for propaganda. Both rely on emotional appeals to change our ideas and feelings about a cause, position, or product."

Once you Blanky, get a little bit of a handle on pathos, ethos & logos, you'll see in the TV advertisements, the scientology promo, everything,

has to do with how to convince, persuade, etc using one or all three of the logos, pathos & ethos.

Lots of folks here don't read the links I provide, I'm in the same boat as you, sort of. So I'm offering my helping hand, as others are.

If you go the local library and check out a book by Arstole, the Art of Rhetoric, have it laying around your house, and be reading it, and tell your partner some of the wins you are having by reading it, and learning about the ethos, pathos, and logos, and the other things in the book, (it ain't that hard, just some concentration)

it might help in the household, over time, mind you.

Consider this link:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/09/21/how-to-debate-politics-civilly/

"Dispense with the the how and why questions. Questions like, “How could you possibly believe that?” and “Why can’t you see how wrong you are?” won’t get you anywhere. Instead, pose “what” questions. “What makes you feel that way?” “What has led you to come to that conclusion?” Be earnestly and sincerely interested in what the person has to say. Do not ask these questions as way to dig up material to pounce on and attack. Take the time to really understand their sides of the issues."

sub political with religion, same thing. sub that with scientology concepts that are weird.
 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around
I recently read this article, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/sekten/mind1.html, which is older, but one of the more clear and to the point explanations I've read of the different ways scn uses mind control techniques on members.

I somewhat like Monica Pignotti's article (which is what the link goes to) because she bothers to detail her points in ordinary language, eventually or in part, rather than just yak on about a potentially pseudo-scientific area of studies that constantly tosses around loaded language pejoratives like "mind control".

If you will study the breadth of sociological and psychological research that has been done modernly, all enduring social groups seek to preserve the group or achieve its more important purposes by making use of certain tactics to some extent. Whether those tactics are called pejorative names and character assassination against the members of the group using those tactics is invited, or on the other hand more descriptive and neutral language and restraint from cheap character assassination is the rule, tends to revolve around a lot of subjective biases and somewhat arbitrary standards for when something becomes so abusive (in someone's subjective opinion) that we are all allowed to drop our critical reasoning and join in a 5-Minutes-Hate ritual about a "cult".

One of the things I so disliked about digging myself out of a Scientology dominated upbringing is that there is such a proliferation of the "cult of the anti-cult" in the materials of the rival side. They so often use uncalled for and underhanded tactics of persuasion that it often serves as invitation to merely jump to something just as mind poisoning as what one left or is trying to leave. If you get away from specifically cultic-studies oriented material then you can get genuine science or at least rigorously thought through ideas that help you make sense of the world without a prior belief system that was unsatisfactory for this. If you find your way to such materials that are free of cultic-studies biases, their loaded language, and other dirty tricks of persuasion, then you don't need to struggle for long after that to get your life functioning well. On the other hand, if you fall into the cult of the anti-cult agenda and its warped view of how there's us and then there's some special evil people to be rescued and allowed to be like us again, you will probably struggle for years to free yourself from that mental sloth and rot.

One of the worst pieces of "help" in adopting a better world view than my previous Scientology upbringing was a recommendation to me by a college professor. He recommended I read the then just released book titled Snapping by people named Conway and Siegelman. Those two gathered some materials that could have made for a very useful sociological survey of members of controversial religious groups, but instead they decided that ham handed and slothful defamation of those unpopular groups was to be their contribution to the welfare of humanity. They also did something that I couldn't help but notice, because in digging myself out of Scientology I found much discussion of traits of pseudo-science to be useful. Because of that immersion in that topic, I had no trouble recognizing Conway and Siegelman as enthusiastic pseudo-science advocates in a tricky area of study: personality theory. They also pulled an amazing dirty persuasion tactic of trumpeting themselves as people competent to distinguish a genuine and valid religious conversion versus what they sought to style as a pathological and evil religious conversion. We can all stop pondering the question that has been with humanity for millenia, of when a religious conversion is proper to pursue, and just ask they two know-it-alls for the answer, it seems. I read that book multiple times through looking for even a single clear description of how you tell when a religious conversation is genuine and valid, as they claimed to be able to recognize, but merely found instance after instance of ham handed defamation of people who they thought obviously had invalid and pathological religious conversions. Of course labeling these latter types of conversions properly as Conway and Siegelman would have us do means we need not consider pesky questions of human rights and religious freedom - not for invalid conversions. It amazed me that a college professor would recommend this book to me given the appallingly low rigor of thought in the work and the broad brush defamation it sought to enable, especially when I considered that his area of expertise was basically the psychology of persuasion. I thought he would know genuine scholarly work from pseudo-science peddled to the masses via the popular press when he saw it, but he didn't. Ultimately the pseudo-science in Snapping was not well received by a broader community of scholars, which is good news.

This is relevant to this thread because you are trying to discuss an area of thought that has a great many contentions and unresolved rival theories associated with it: personality theory. Everybody seems to think they qualify as an expert on "personality" as they have one and go about forming opinions of personality of others, so everyone is free to consider themselves an expert, and their pronouncements are thus basically self-proving by the fact that they stated them. It is very easy to talk about personality and think you've got it right if you don't bother with the fact that it is a very complex topic with many rival views on it. Because of the great conviction people might speak with on a nebulous and slippery topic, personality theory, it is also the breeding ground of hateful thinking about others that need not be whipped up when plain and ordinary language that avoids complex issues is sufficient to your ends.

Pignotti did a fair job in traveling down the road of getting away from the pejorative loaded language so in vogue to use about the people she was discussing and had once been an example of, but didn't make it all the way to where she needed to in my estimate. Her materials still have at least a vague stench of the cultic-studies mindset to them and to that degree share in the sloth and underhandedness of cultic-studies in its attempts at persuasion that "we have done quit enough study now to dispense with pesky concerns over religious freedom and human rights and we should all just do the right thing by joining in a 5-Minutes-Hate ritual about cults." It would have been nice to see her make it all the way to freedom for her own mind, overcoming the sloth and rot that infests most cultic-studies work, instead of still having one toe still stuck in the mire of cultic-studies and its mind deadening indoctrination that her work seems to endorse by utilizing its language and world view.

Groups like Scientology go way beyond certain boundaries most people consider mandatory to stop at in the process of persuading others, but it is a matter of degree or excess involved rather than difference in the basic tactic or mechanisms involved. You face two choices in combating this:

1. Think that following in the footsteps of scientific frauds like Jolly West and Margaret Singer is necessary, so that you essentially use tactics you claim to disdain by indoctrinating people into your cult of the anti-cult, its loaded language, its excessive reverence to the authority of the saviors West and Singer and their fans, its adherence to its anti-cult doctrine over concerns of personal dignity of people that doctrine targets as pathological and in need of stripping of human rights, etc etc.

2. Realize that almost all humans understand and are capable of passionately responding to violation of certain norms concerning lying, menacing/bullying, threatening or actually using restraint or violence, dividing family members against each other in the service of someone's lust for power, etc etc. In all of this you need never use loaded language and special jargon as the "mind control" theorists do. You need never appeal to some overawing authority (who may be a pseudo-science advocate) instead of experience and values common to almost all humans. You need never advocate that people's human rights are dispensable because of some great doctrine you are advocating, etc etc.

If you choose route 2, you will have a far more potent persuasion of far more people than if you choose route 1, or similar routes which depend on persuading people of how right you are on a very contentious area of thought.

Forget talking about ambiguous theories and "mind control cults" and talk about the words used when someone promised you something he or she knew, as later events showed, were flat lies that would not be fulfilled as promised. Not only is this more powerful, it guards against polluting your own mind with powerful sounding conclusions concerning a slippery topic: personality theory.

Sorry this is so long, but I think people really are damaging their own mind when they try to talk about a complex topic and use simplistic and poorly thought through jargon and world views to do it. That's what taking Pignotti's article as the premises of discussion amounts to. Instead, free your mind completely and finish the journey Pignotti very nearly completed.
 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around
Scientology clears the "being" of any compassion, sympathy for others, and overall emotions except enthusiasm for anything Scientology does, releases, tells you to think, do, donate, be and of course, COB - one must have high admiration for COB or else.


An active died in the wool Scientologist is really in a state of confusion. If they were allowed to do Tubbs condition formula - they would find out that they are in a cult and the rest of the world is not in agreement with command intention. The rest of the world knows it is a cult and won't have anything to do with it.

I also noticed with some die hards that they don't like sex - it becomes repulsive in the cult - Scientology twists sex to a perverted act that one only does to procreate and there is no procreation of children - they get in the way of command intention to completely control members lives so they are feeding COB's insatiable appetite for money and power and lots of MEST!

As a side note - the active Scientologist must act in a way that suits the leader. Total submission no matter what! That is the difference between Scientology today verses when Hubbard was around. The member dramatizes the personality of the leader. They slowly go insane! There is no kindness even faked by Miscavige! At least ole Tubbs was kind to some people during his creation.

The admiration for Hubbard will slowly wane away because only a true narcissist can keep a cult of this magnitude alive. Miscavige is slowly boiling the frogs again - and Hubbard will be #2 because if it were not for COB - Scientology would not have these billions of dollars carefully hidden from view. Miscavige CREATED the bank accounts and that money is HIS!!

Miscavige is a full blown psychopath and narcissist. He has convinced himself that HE HAS SACRIFICED and worked HARDER than anyone else - even LRH! That is his grave mistake which will take him down shortly! Now that the IRS Tax Returns have been disclosed on the internet and Scientology IS sitting on BILLIONS of dollars - the IRS will be forced to shut them down! Tick Tock Tick Tock!

Miscavige needs to feed off of admiration of the minions below him. Everyone is to be used and abused to keep the leader leading.

Scientology strips the person's true identity and replaces it with the cult identity.


I would be prepared to consider all the above true on a "true for you" basis if only it had been worded that way!

Instead you hold forth on a large number of people, treating them as essentially the same or interchangeable, and utter passionate denunciation of them. As to that, I am reminded of the brilliant quip made about Dianetics when it was first published, that it was a work holding perhaps the record for absurdly grandiose claims compared to its paltry attempt to supply supporting facts.

Seriously, I didn't know anywhere NEAR the large majority of Scientologists, only a small subset in my circle, and I believe this is true of many others, including you. Using that small experiential base to engage in broad brush stereotyping is really pulling a Hubbard, I think.

I knew a good many people in Scientology who were fundamentally honest and who did not have their entire character crushed and deformed by Scientology. True, they were often the dupes of dishonest people whose characters seem strongly warped by Scientology, but they themselves were not some pitiable object of scorn who were rendered into something stripped of a mystical quality called "person's true identity" because of their involvement. They seemed to me to be basically who they were in or out of Scientology, with little need to invoke a mysterious "personality theory" to account for changes that didn't manifest in my observation. There were a lot of diverse individuals, not one stereotype person, in Scientology in my experience.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I'm beginning to believe hubbard used rhetorical writing to "mind control" people.

Hubbard learned rhetorical writing and practiced it well.

I just found this out recently and have been looking into it.

I read this letter by Hubbard to his Dean Wilbur who taught him rhetorical writing. Rhetorical writing is the art & science of persuasion by Arstole. Hubbard says auditing is an art & science. Hmmmmmm.

Here is the letter to Dean Wilbur in 1936
http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/dear-dean-wilbur/

This sentence hubbards says he is going to write a book, and use Dean Wilbur's rhetoric book:

"Do not allow this to upset you in any way. Put it down that I am a rebel, a nonconformist, anything. Some of these days I am going to set down these things in a book, and your rhetoric, very battered now, will be open on the desk beside me when I write it."

I never learned "rhetoric". I am having fantastic wins with getting familar with it from the viewpoint of seeing others use the 3 forms of persuasion which are ethos, pathos & logos, which are natural by the way. It's how we persuade whether we know it or not.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/

Why study rhetoric?

Answer: "Protects you from intellectual despotism. I had a classics professor that said, “Advertising is the tool of the despot.” That idea really stuck with me. Since ancient times, powerful men have used propaganda to maintain control over their subjects. According to my professor, advertising is just a benign name for propaganda. Both rely on emotional appeals to change our ideas and feelings about a cause, position, or product."

Once you Blanky, get a little bit of a handle on pathos, ethos & logos, you'll see in the TV advertisements, the scientology promo, everything,

has to do with how to convince, persuade, etc using one or all three of the logos, pathos & ethos.

Lots of folks here don't read the links I provide, I'm in the same boat as you, sort of. So I'm offering my helping hand, as others are.

If you go the local library and check out a book by Arstole, the Art of Rhetoric, have it laying around your house, and be reading it, and tell your partner some of the wins you are having by reading it, and learning about the ethos, pathos, and logos, and the other things in the book, (it ain't that hard, just some concentration)

it might help in the household, over time, mind you.

Consider this link:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/09/21/how-to-debate-politics-civilly/

"Dispense with the the how and why questions. Questions like, “How could you possibly believe that?” and “Why can’t you see how wrong you are?” won’t get you anywhere. Instead, pose “what” questions. “What makes you feel that way?” “What has led you to come to that conclusion?” Be earnestly and sincerely interested in what the person has to say. Do not ask these questions as way to dig up material to pounce on and attack. Take the time to really understand their sides of the issues."

sub political with religion, same thing. sub that with scientology concepts that are weird.

Very interesting link, thank you. (I do tend to read the links :) )

Here's the thing I find so fascinating - possibly in the horrible-can't-look-away sort of way - Mr/s Blanky is highly educated. We've both held positions in marketing - s/he knows these things. We talk about them. We talk about them in relation to education, government, religion, advertising, etc. And yet, s/he can't seem to connect the dots to what happens in scn. It boggles the mind how compartmentalized s/he is. Maybe others who were once in feel they were the same way. I do know s/he got the Debbie Cook email. Or, I should say I'm almost certain, and yet the fanaticism lives on without any apparent cracks.

I've implemented more open ended questions and will add to that. Good suggestion, thanks. I'll see if I can find the book too.

So .... did you find your thinking had solidified during the years you were in?

Blanky
 
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