Third Party Redux...

[clamicide]

OK, I started thinking about the whole crazy third-party thing today and arguments on the board. I was on another board I'm on that broke down into a ridiculously insane argument over a topic that, from what I've seen will always create crazy factions and weirdness. Troll accusations, people getting personal...just abnormal. This is a board that...let's say, where we are dealing with a cult where a lot of people have gone through a tremendous amount of suffering, seeing the EXACT same thing there was a real "huh" moment. People tend to get passionate about stuff.

So, it finally hit me--people do fight. I know there is this notion that we all need to try and get totally along, because otherwise OSA is winning and we are dividing factions and that sort of thing... and whatever. Let OSA think they are winning if they want. Who gives a damn. Really, the fact that they are just sort of spending a ton of energy instigating crap like that, when it happens on the most idiotic of boards... well, damn stupid. Congrats. And I'm sure they have started fights. I prefer when stuff stays civilized...yeah. I've gone off here, and there was stuff I was OK with the fact I went off over, and other stuff where I went We're fucking humans...this whole thing that ANY stuff is all brought about by third party and we have to be shiny to be in opposition to the bastards is kind of ridiculous.

I hate the hell when stuff gets watered down. It drives me crazy some days when I see the artful diversion of threads and attention. But, I don't know. Are we all REALLY being diverted about how we feel about this and how we will talk to others when it comes to the cult? I find myself getting more and more real and open as time goes on out IRL. Their stats might be going up from certain things that happen on message boards...but is it an indicator of their success at ALL in any real tangible way. When I get pissed off by what I believe to be idiocy, or perhaps even OSA shit, then I tend to get a bit more resolved and open out in life. Maybe I'm the only one.

One reason I found myself coming back here was that PTSD shit did start kicking up again...and being here helps process some of that. Being here when I first found this place kept me going when it totally had me by the neck while I was getting counselling in-between those sessions (not auditing sessions). And, I had also been turned off by some of the in-fighting...it's not pleasant. But, it happens. I did just go off on another Marty copy-pasta...yeah, it pisses me off. I'm not on Marty's board. Others will disagree...and life will go on. It is scary when you come out and see people disagreeing outwardly with each other. Hell, I only saw that in session folders or with folks who were quickly sent to ethics. It happens. It'd be awesome if we can try to keep it more civil...but, if we don't, it doesn't mean we're all OSA pawns, no matter what they think.

Oh, I guess we might be "humanoid", but it also means we're not so dissociated that we just don't give a fuck about stuff that is important to us. Hell, we might even sometimes be repeating old illogical stuff we hold onto due to emotion...and the more we're out, hopefully the more we can notice that. It doesn't take a session...it really doesn't.

 

[clamicide]

wow...so tl;dr...I really wish sometimes I didn't type so quickly...guess I had a bit bottled up

 

[Free to shine]

Bloody good post!

I've thought the same things myself sometimes, you have written it out way better than I could. It IS ok to express emotions is the bottom line. There are checks and balances (mods for a start) to make sure it doesn't get too far out of hand. In my opinion it's almost a requiste for healing to be able to be angry too. I remember once a long time ago I really spat the dummy a couple of times coolwink: Emma) and once it was so intense I could do nothing my cry my rage out for a few days. When I had calmed down I realised that the real subject was of course personal - to do with groups and dogpiling, judgements and so on, something common in scio, and voila...the rage went and a new day dawned.

I don't give a shit about OSA and their stats and their silly games to stir the pot, or try to. The more they read here the more chance of some truth breaking through the bubble.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

When a scientologist or ex first arrives here it probably is quite shocking to observe the ruckus on occasion because we were trained to reach agreement about things and handle our ARCX and normal people don't necessarily need or want to do that.

We are normal people now.

Lol.

No party line to push and no PR to concern ourselves with and certainly no robotic communication rules or drills ... I find that exhilarating!

 

[Emma]

Great thread. Great posts all.

I also don't give a shit about OSAs stats. It makes me smile to think that they think they are winning when they cause a division or argument. What they don't realise is that the people who they've caused a fight between on the board, will still work together behind the scenes to bring the cult to justice over its human rights abuses. They just won't be "all buddy buddy" while doing it. But they still do it!

Also, not everyone is gunna like everyone else. We are a diverse group here on ESMB. Fights & disagreements will happen, but I bet you one million dollars that on the day this cult is defeated, sworn "enemies" will embrace each other and raise a glass to each other because we are all in this together.

 

[Nicole]

Great post Clamicide

It is great to read here on this board different opinions and it is great to say what I want, without getting censored or "punished". Especially I find it very important. I am speeking free and this may be for the first time of my life. ..and I have to learn it.

Of course because of our different opinions and characters people on this board discuss etc. We are just humans.

We shouldn't think so much about OSA and their Tech... The more we think about it, the more we will see OSA and we will see OSA where it isn't. That gives them power here on this board.

Damn I wished I learned better English and/or you all could read German.

 

[degraded being]

l like the original post too - and the others.

The idea of all of us presenting ourselves to OSA as all in agreement makes a very peculiar picture IMO.

I don't really know how OSA can do much else except mislead themselves if they try to stir up dissent or try to control dissent that occurs. My understanding is that they operate often by not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing anyway. They have to do that or else anyone with "cover" could be outed somewhere, sometime, or get OSA terminals in trouble. So they are stuck with being stuck in their own spider webs, to begin with, then they have to cope with all sorts of SPs and DBs of different factions, people coming and going starting new boards and blogs. So really, do they actually know when or if they have caused anything or not? Jesus! I'd hate to have their job!

 

[MrNobody]

Great posts,guys!

The point (IMHO) is:
What OSA wants, is one singular group, unified under one goal. Yay, one single target - easy to attack, easy to derail, easy to manipulate, all in all easy to play with.

What OSA gets is this: A large group of individuals, each of 'em with their own opinions, their own goals, their own purposes.

Example:
User A: "What do you guys think of <insert interesting issue of the day>?
UserB: "I support this because of reason E and reason F."
UserC: "I cannnot support this because of reason G and reason H."
UserI: "I don't care, and why should I?"
UserJ: "..."
UserK "OK, but did you think guys about issue X, reason y, and result Z? And how would that correlate to W?"
Osa: "Oh shit, where and how should/could we attack all of THAT?"

End-of example.

My thoughts: Yay, diversity rules!

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

When a scientologist or ex first arrives here it probably is quite shocking to observe the ruckus on occasion because we were trained to reach agreement about things and handle our ARCX and normal people don't necessarily need or want to do that.

We are normal people now.

Lol.

No party line to push and no PR to concern ourselves with and certainly no robotic communication rules or drills ... I find that exhilarating!

Being trained to reach agreement about things and handle our ARCX means figuring out a way to make Hubbard right, which in time turns into keeping your thoughts to yourself unless you have already figured out a way to make Hubbard right by expressing them.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

There is some truth to the 3rd party theory. It's just that it contains some absolutes and arbitraries and then that messes it up to the point where I do not give it anywhere near as much credence as I might otherwise have done.

There are situations where someone is talking about someone else, and the subject who's being talked about has no idea and then other people sometimes treat the subject accordingly because they've been receiving this gossip or whatever.

It would work in another way, too. What if you had someone who was critical of someone else and you explained that this other person had this or that happen and that they have reasons for acting/doing what they do- in other words, if you were to spread positive info about someone that those critical of him or her did not have...

Simply put: stuff that goes on behind the scenes can affect things. History and current events are full of examples of this.

 

[VaD]

...a topic that will always create crazy factions and weirdness. Troll accusations, people getting personal...just abnormal..... People tend to get passionate about stuff.

...People do fight. I know there is this notion that we all need to try and get totally along, because otherwise OSA is winning and we are dividing factions and that sort of thing... and whatever. ... We're fucking humans...this whole thing that ANY stuff is all brought about by third party and we have to be shiny to be in opposition to the bastards is kind of ridiculous.

...the in-fighting...it's not pleasant. But, it happens. ...
.. It is scary when you come out and see people disagreeing outwardly with each other. ... It happens. It'd be awesome if we can try to keep it more civil...but, if we don't, it doesn't mean we're all OSA pawns, no matter what they think.

Oh, I guess we might be "humanoid", but it also means we're not so dissociated that we just don't give a fuck about stuff that is important to us.

"..." means that words are removed from the OP.

OSA or no OSA. - It has little to do with OSA. It's a MESSAGE Board where ALL lurkers and MOST of posters are anonymous.

The fact that "We are humans" has little to do that some posters and posts are not listened to, not heard, or heard in some way(s) that get that poster pissed beyond the limit.
An example: one poster here keeps making people to *look* while not seeing the
obvious himself. - That might piss some people off.
Is he OSA? - No, he isn't.

People DO get personal on message boards. - It's a sign of immaturity.
- But what often happens is that others are as immature as that "immature poster".
They don't hear, they don't try to understand, they don't try to clarify whether they understood. They just bash.
- And, as a result, what was supposed to be a good talk for all parties involved becomes bricks-shitting over half of the Internetz.

Problem is not in OSA.
Solution is not in agreeing "we are just humans".

Problem is in inability/lack of willingness to listen and HEAR.
Solution is in taking time to listen and trying to understand BEFORE getting into shit-fight.

***
I've been on both sides: didn't listen and hear another party*/wasn't listened to or heard.

* Yet, I often times (most of the time, actually) )got myself corrected along the way afterwards, and apologized for my inappropriate words and behaviors).
But some here "don't believe in historical revisionism". - They don't forgive. They don't forget. They don't change their mind ever.

 

[smartone]

Oh happy days

 

[Mixxed Up]

While Third-partying does happen out in the "real" world, most of the time it is pretty obvious...to the point where when I first found out about third-partying, I was like "yeah, that happens, but why make a big deal out of it".

However, my question is, if ALL disagreements come from MU's, then where does third-partying come into play, and if disagreements come from third-partying, then the statement about MU's must be false. So once again, LRH's conflicting data is exposed.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

It can, sometimes, be rather obvious that someone is talking behind one's back- which is basically what 3p is-- however, I will say that since the thing is done behind person's back, there's that secrecy and one may not always know.

Here's an example. I used to work for Bank of America. I had a very nice career there, lots of promotions when I was there. I had started as a collector. Now, I like murder mysteries and science fiction. I always have a book with me whereever I go. My friends can tell you that. So I always had these books. Now, what I didn't know was that the girl next to me was telling everyone that I was weird and read blood and guts books. And people started saying weird crap and looking at me funny.

See? It was months, if not years, before I found out that this was said about me.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

It can, sometimes, be rather obvious that someone is talking behind one's back- which is basically what 3p is-- however, I will say that since the thing is done behind person's back, there's that secrecy and one may not always know.

You are redefining 3rd party. That is NOT what Hubbard defined it as - so let's get back to what the Great Tub O' Lard called it:

It is NOT talking about someone behind their back. It is not "gossip" it is very specific - a "third party" is a

"A THIRD PARTY MUST BE PRESENT AND UNKNOWN IN EVERY QUARREL FOR A CONFLICT TO EXIST.

or

FOR A QUARREL TO OCCUR, AN UNKNOWN THIRD PARTY MUST BE ACTIVE IN PRODUCING IT BETWEEN TWO POTENTIAL OPPONENTS.

or

WHILE IT IS COMMONLY BELIEVED TO TAKE TWO TO MAKE A FIGHT, A THIRD PARTY MUST EXIST AND MUST DEVELOP IT FOR ACTUAL CONFLICT TO OCCUR."

It is something specific and it is utter bullshit.

Which is one reason why OSA keeps fucking things up.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I'm not redefining it. I already said I didn't agree with parts of it and that there are ASPECTS to the theory that I do agree with and I gave examples. I also said this wasn't the same as the third party law.

Nowhere did I represent my maunderings as verbatim LRH 3 P law.

Nowhere.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

You are redefining 3rd party. That is NOT what Hubbard defined it as - so let's get back to what the Great Tub O' Lard called it:

It is NOT talking about someone behind their back. It is not "gossip" it is very specific - a "third party" is a

"A THIRD PARTY MUST BE PRESENT AND UNKNOWN IN EVERY QUARREL FOR A CONFLICT TO EXIST.

or

FOR A QUARREL TO OCCUR, AN UNKNOWN THIRD PARTY MUST BE ACTIVE IN PRODUCING IT BETWEEN TWO POTENTIAL OPPONENTS.

or

WHILE IT IS COMMONLY BELIEVED TO TAKE TWO TO MAKE A FIGHT, A THIRD PARTY MUST EXIST AND MUST DEVELOP IT FOR ACTUAL CONFLICT TO OCCUR."

It is something specific and it is utter bullshit.

Which is one reason why OSA keeps fucking things up.

OSA keeps fucking things up because all that's left for them to do is fuck things up.


OSA was designed to be a gang of thugs used to intimidate anyone who stood in the way of the ambitions of Hubbard's cult. It's pretty fucking hard for OSA to intimidate anyone when they can't get them to stop laughing at their dumb asses.

The only people OSA has control over is those who still have family members in the cult, and even that is dwindling for them, since these footbullets are being documented and used against them to deny them tax exemption.

Fucking up is not even optional for them since Hubbard's Retard Tech demands them to keep statistics on the amount of toes they shoot off for Ron ... and the stats better be good, or they will be subject to Hubbard's Retard Tech themselves.

It's a trainwreck by design.

 

[clamicide]

Yeah...for me it comes back to "BEHIND EVERY CONFLICT"

yeah....nope. People get pissed off at each other, and it happens... Not saying that there is never a hidden influence, but to run your lives around this is nutzoid. I think it maybe was a diversion tactic for when folks in the cult disagreed and they 'should' have been able to sort it out with the tek...and couldn't...well, blame a third party. This is not to deny that crazy, weird, third-party 'ops' don't happen. I think it's more less of an "explanation" of what happens in many times than an operation manual to "divide and conquer".

Which brings me back to the initial point, if OSA still gets their rocks off by instigating BS fights which give them fuzzy feelings, but we still continue to hate and talk about injustice brought about by the cult, then....well, fuck third party. Doesn't mean we need to get dumb about when it happens, I'm just saying that we don't need to have a meltdown when folks do get 'into it' with each other and cave in because "OSA won"...and "everything that folks went up into arms with each other is an OSA win" Internet flame wars when insane are insane anywhere...it doesn't "A=A" that it's an awesome OSA win...I'm sure they think it is for them, but really...WE NEED TO STOP DEFINING OUR LIVES BY THEIR TERMS! They will have ops, they will start fights...let's be aware of it, but feel FREE to get into it with someone if it really is from your view and not be freaked out that Scio somehow wins by doing it. Scio only wins if you are continually arguing from a fixed viewpoint...because THAT was the unstated product. Listen while you fight, and be willing to admit an "oops".

Fighting isn't optimum, but sometimes make-up sex can be awesome...thanks OSA for the times you DID instigate and we got past it! Some of us have had GREAT pleasure afterwards...we welcome you to the afterparty once you also awaken