What's 'really' wrong with this cult?

[well_that_sucked]

​

Why Are They Dead?​

 

[Rmack]

Thanks for this important thread Rmack.

I think most students of the occult would recognise scientology as a manifestation of occult practices. What is "really wrong with the cult" is that it is occultism gone "bad", due to misuse of occult practices by its founder.

I was going to post about Scientology being an "egregore" as a contribution to the thread but you have made the point in your last thread, so I'll expand upon it.

Here is a Wiki link that defines "egregore" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore for those interested in this.

Ron's history in AMORC and OTO will quite likely have meant that he came upon this occult idea. The Wikipedia article doesn't go into much occult theory, but it is still interesting to compare this article to scientology and its founder's history. Here are some key points from the wikipedia article:

• The concept of the egregore as a group thoughtform was developed in works of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucians
• egregore - an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people
• a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose
• a group of people can make decisions that no individual would endorse on their own
• compliance of individuals with the intentions of a group despite individual misgivings
• trying to understand the group by understanding its members in isolation fails
• see the group itself as having preferences for a certain outcome, regardless of its members' wishes

My thesis is that Ron deliberately created an egregore to immortalise himself as per his intentions stated in his Admissions. "That I burn high and bright and will last as a potent and brilliant force until well after this century has run." This psychic force is scientology - Ron's egregore.

Scientology is his deliberate egregore which covertly enforces and solidifies itself due to hidden occult practices disguised as the "tech". As long as the "tech" is practised, the egregore will continue and solidify. Ron wanted this to happen: "this hypnosis will not fade, but will increase in power as time advances." LRH Admissions.

How are egregores created? Some of the techniques occultists use to create an egregore (an autonomous psychic entity influencing the thoughts of a group of people) are fixation of attention, visualisation, creation of thought forms and the summoning and control of entities.

Hubbard was a relative expert at these occult techniques before he created scientology.

They comprise a significant part of the scn "tech", from TRs, to engram running. From creative processing to BTs. Ron got scientologists to fixate attention, visualise pain and suffering (engrams), create thought forms (past lives, implants, BTs, universes) and control entities.

He, like a vampire, used the followers energies to create his psychic entitity (egregore) called scientology.

It's an occult teaching that misuse of occult techniques rebounds negatively upon the practitioner. Nevertheless the history of the Occult is littered with individuals who believed they could defy this law.

I believe Hubbard was one such, who suffered the inevitable insanity, pain and degredation. His created egregore came back to bite him, if you like. He was tortured by feelings that his egregore followers (scientologists) were trying to destroy him. He would rage about entities possessing him. This was his occult self-created hell.

His egregore (scientology) manifests all the negative aspects of his occult techniques and pushes these negative effects upon its followers. Scientologists have fixated attention, they suffer and are in pain, often physically ill, and are plagued by endless entities. Scientology itself is fixated, surrounded by conflict, believes it has endless enemies trying to inflict pain and suffering upon scientology and that it is plagued by an intergalactic, inter-universe thought-control war.

This is inevitable due to the dark occult techniques that Ron implanted into the subject. His egregore is a self-defeating psychic force that is fuelled and stengthened solely by the processes its followers run on each other and themselves.

Ron would have known these risks, but his ego fooled him into thinking he could defy these effects (see his Admissions) and he certainly didn't care about the risk of these effects on his egregore creators/followers (scientologists).

• "You can experience no evil or illness. You are wholly protected. You cannot guide yourself wrong for you are guided as a crown prince."
• "You have no fears about working psychically for you are safe, always safe, protected by your Guardian as in a mighty fortress."
• "Men are your slaves. Elemental spirits are your slaves."

LRH, Founder, Source.

Brilliant post, LH. I'm so glad, too, as it saves me lots of work!

 

[lionheart]

Brilliant post, LH. I'm so glad, too, as it saves me lots of work!

In a nutshell, scientology is an autonomus psychic entity that is created by the thoughtrs of scientologists and in return controls their thoughts.

Hubbard's "tech" contains many occult techniques to create this entity, the purpose of which is to glorify LRH and was the source of his power when he was incarnate.

It is autonomous and will perpetuate while scientologists continue to run the occult techniques embedded in the tech.

Scientologists (who are psychically controlled by the egregore) will therefore always behave disreputably and be in conflict and the egregore (scientology) will always behave worse than its creators (scientologists) would individually behave, as long as they continue to visualise conflict, pain, suffering and entities "in session" and feed this energy to Hubbard's egregore.

The psychic creation (egregore) then controls them, making them suffer and be in conflict, as a mirror of the suffering and conflict that they visualise "in session".

As an aside and an indication of a remedy, compare the positive tech of the Happiness Rundrown (and some Grades processes) to the negative tech of engram running, GPM runing, implant running and BT/entity running.

The latter tends to re-inforce the negative egregore (scientology) with more visualisation of pain and conflict (which was LRH's currency that he traded in). The former tends to dissolve the egregore with love and wisdom.

In 1982/3 the egregore therefore had to dispose of the products of the HRD in particular, as they threatened its and Ron's psychic power of control.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Hmm.. I don't know if I'm prepared to believe that 'occultism' actually works.. Neither am I prepared to think that 'occultism' is good, when not gone bad.. Whatever.. Conjuring up demons? - We might have a fark'in problem like a Ghostbusters movie on our hands!

I do, however, believe that Hubbard believed it! - And Scientology certainly fits the description of an 'egregore'.. But then, I see similarities in many human groups.. The Nazi Party and the german army.. Any army in fact.. And political organizations.. Companies.. And football clubs.. And religions most pointedly!

Loyalty is generally a positive thing.. Dedication too.. Authority is probably neccesary and not always bad.. And we do need rules, and presumably 'punishmment'.. But when the 'group dynamics' go bad..

There's human traits that can explain it.
The Stanford Prison Experiment & The Milgram Experiment

So I think Hubbard, and by inference 'occultism', deliberatly plays on those bad human traits.

In my opinion we all need to be watching that.. And make sure it doesn't get out of hand. This would apply very much to people in a police function. Lest the force degrades into an intimidating motorcycle gang.

Scientologists has failed completely with this! - Much to my disappointment.. I thought that they were a group who was better than that...

 

[Rmack]

Hmm.. I don't know if I'm prepared to believe that 'occultism' actually works.. Neither am I prepared to think that 'occultism' is good, when not gone bad.. Whatever.. Conjuring up demons? - We might have a fark'in problem like a Ghostbusters movie on our hands

Do you really believe that what you see is what you get? Don't you know there is much more going on 'behind the scenes' of our ordinary perceptions?

Just google 'quantum physics' to study this one.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Deleted

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Do you really believe that what you see is what you get? Don't you know there is much more going on 'behind the scenes' of our ordinary perceptions?

Just google 'quantum physics' to study this one.

And aside from this being a primary marketing point/ploy for the Scientology scam.. What does it have to do with anything?

And no.. I don't know about anything going on 'behind the scenes' of our ordinary perceptions.. Or inside my reactive mind.. Or in places I am not present..

You know.. I'm not precisely thrilled with you trying to make me, and everyone, up with a grand mystery! - Are you a mystery sandwich? Or are you peddeling one? - Is it a turd between the buns?

The OT's I've known were more banky than me.. And they weren't any better at making ashtrays stand up!

What can we learn from that?

That it's pattern that repeats in the occult 'communities'?

Show me a muthafuckn' Demon!

 

[Rmack]

And aside from this being a primary marketing point/ploy for the Scientology scam.. What does it have to do with anything?

And no.. I don't know about anything going on 'behind the scenes' of our ordinary perceptions.. Or inside my reactive mind.. Or in places I am not present..

You know.. I'm not precisely thrilled with you trying to make me, and everyone, up with a grand mystery! - Are you a mystery sandwich? Or are you peddeling one? - Is it a turd between the buns?

The OT's I've known were more banky than me.. And they weren't any better at making ashtrays stand up!

What can we learn from that?

That it's pattern that repeats in the occult 'communities'?

Show me a muthafuckn' Demon!

Sorry Shwimmy, didn't mean to offend.

What I meant was there is so much evidence-scientific evidence- that demonstrates that there is so much more than what our senses reveal to us that it's not that much of a leap to suspect that we aren't the only intelligences around.

Quantum physics is a real mind-bender. Someone once said something like 'Quantum physics it the most absurd, improbable, unbelievable and ridiculous theorem that has ever been proposed. The only thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct.'

I have had several experiences over the years that has demonstrated to me that spiritual beings do indeed exist. Some of them have been when I was with other people, so I know it's not all just my imagination or something.

Though they may disagree on many things, every major religion in history has insisted that they exist.

And if all of that didn't convince me that paranormal things do happen, living with my gifted wife would!

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Sorry Shwimmy, didn't mean to offend.

What I meant was there is so much evidence-scientific evidence- that demonstrates that there is so much more than what our senses reveal to us that it's not that much of a leap to suspect that we aren't the only intelligences around.

Quantum physics is a real mind-bender. Someone once said something like 'Quantum physics it the most absurd, improbable, unbelievable and ridiculous theorem that has ever been proposed. The only thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct.'

I have had several experiences over the years that has demonstrated to me that spiritual beings do indeed exist. Some of them have been when I was with other people, so I know it's not all just my imagination or something.

Though they may disagree on many things, every major religion in history has insisted that they exist.

And if all of that didn't convince me that paranormal things do happen, living with my gifted wife would!

Yes.. Quantum physics.. And Heizenbergs Uncertainty Principle.. It was discussed in another thread recently. Fascinating stuff..

I don't think it proves 'mind over matter' though.. But it's certainly an interesting idea.. Dan Brown wrote a book about it, 'The Lost Symbol'.

I haven't ever seen, or been aware, of a spiritual being. Other than those in ordinary bodies like myself, other people.. (Note that I consider us 'spiritual beings' even as I think we are 'meatballs'.)

No encounters with 'disembodied' spirits.. Or rather no encounters that I couldn't write off as possible or likely mental 'fabrication' done by myself.. That even includes seeing a 'dead' man hanging in a tree and having 'agreement' from two girls that he did hang there. We were all 'enthusiastic' scientologists and really really wanted this kind of stuff to be real. So we could see this guy hanging in the tree about a mile from St.Hill on Imberhorne Lane. When got closer we couldn't see him.. Neither could we see him in daylight.. Yet we had agreement that the guy hung there.. Curiously we also agreed that we weren't nuts!

 

[Rmack]

Yes.. Quantum physics.. And Heizenbergs Uncertainty Principle.. It was discussed in another thread recently. Fascinating stuff..

I don't think it proves 'mind over matter' though.. But it's certainly an interesting idea.. Dan Brown wrote a book about it, 'The Lost Symbol'.

I haven't ever seen, or been aware, of a spiritual being. Other than those in ordinary bodies like myself, other people.. (Note that I consider us 'spiritual beings' even as I think we are 'meatballs'.)

No encounters with 'disembodied' spirits.. Or rather no encounters that I couldn't write off as possible or likely mental 'fabrication' done by myself.. That even includes seeing a 'dead' man hanging in a tree and having 'agreement' from two girls that he did hang there. We were all 'enthusiastic' scientologists and really really wanted this kind of stuff to be real. So we could see this guy hanging in the tree about a mile from St.Hill on Imberhorne Lane. When got closer we couldn't see him.. Neither could we see him in daylight.. Yet we had agreement that the guy hung there.. Curiously we also agreed that we weren't nuts!

Well, I've seen some really weird shit in my time. But, I'll only mention the ones that other people saw at the same time, so I know it wasn't some kind of hallucination.

One time I was sitting in my den, talking about strange stuff with a friend when we both saw something that looked like the all-light people from the movie 'Cocoon' sort of glide in through the door and then disappear. My friend just looked at me bug-eyed and said 'You know, I have to admit, I didn't believe any of the stuff you had told me...until now.'

There was another time when I was sitting around a table in this same den playing a role-playing game with about a half dozen or so friends.

I had what had started out as a 'telesterion' (which is really a sort of alter to the mysteries) that I had set up when I had briefly took AMORC lessons. It was now being used for my FLO practices. It was actually a fish tank stand with an AMORC altar cloth on it with a rose-cross sewn into it, with magical paraphernalia on top: a cup, a wand, a dagger, and a pentacle coin, as well as a few other things.

It also had a mirror on the wall behind it, on which I had traced a pentagram with ritually consecrated salt-water from one of the lessons.

I had foolishly left it out in the open, as I had no way of concealing it. After this incident, I got a large wicker type screen that I set up around it.

We were all playing along, when a couple of us said the same thing at the same time, or something, I don't recall exactly what. What happened next, I'll never forget.

A very bright ball of light suddenly shot out of the mirror, flew across the table, and impacted one of my players. Everyone saw it, and just sat there stunned. I quickly did an 'astral' (in my mind) banishing ritual of the pentagram, figuring this might deal with whatever had just showed up. Probably made it worse, if anything!

We went around the table and checked; everyone saw the same thing, though a couple just seemed to see a bright flash. It was bizarre how easily we just got back to the game! People tend to just ignore stuff that doesn't fit into their reality.

Earlier, when I lived at another house, we were also playing D&D when I saw out of the corner of my eye what I thought was my wife walk through the room and turn into our bedroom, which didn't have a door. I couldn't understand why the light didn't come on, so I looked over at the room, and realized there was nothing there. I examined the memory, and realized it was only the top of someone, no legs. One of the players who was facing the door confirmed this. Again, everyone saw something, except the guy who had his back to the door.

Remember; these are just the ones with plenty of witnesses. I've seen weirder when I was alone. Several times.

 

[Dark Phoenix]

 

[Rmack]

If this isn't just a joke, I can tell you that I give you my word that everything I wrote about is absolute gospel truth, as far as I saw it. And I can tell that you my word means a lot to me. I'm an old fashioned kind of guy who believes in God and honor.

Beyond that I can't help you. Except to suggest that many peoples silence about their experiences is based on a desire to avoid criticism, persecution, and accusations of being a liar, or crazy.

Very many people value acceptance much more than any motivation to educate or enlighten people to things they might not know about.

 

[themadhair]

Here is a rather uncomfortable thought. Maybe what is wrong with cultic groups is actually something that is wrong with the human condition. Some of our greatest strengths such as idealism, ambition, desire to help others, etc. are the very things cults exploit.

 

[TEoS]

If this isn't just a joke, I can tell you that I give you my word that everything I wrote about is absolute gospel truth, as far as I saw it.

There are people out there that will swear on their lives they are Lord Nelson reincarnated, have been abducted by alien beings, can heal cancer by putting rocks on your head, of perhaps that they're even a teapot, or, heaven forbid; they will swear that Body Thetans are real! As James Randi once wrote, "No amount of belief makes something a fact."

Just because science hasn't explained a particular phenomenon yet, it doesn't make it a supernatural or spiritual one. If you could time travel back to the 16th century, and demonstrate an iPhone (for taking pictures/video of course; a cellphone signal would be pretty much a no-no!) 16th century people would almost certainly consider that a supernatural thing. Of course, there could be supernatural or spiritual forces out there, but hard evidence proving they exist is itself non-existent.

 

[Mystic]

That's a wonderful question in the OP: What's really wrong with this cult?

Well, it's ALL wrong. So we can also ask: What's really right with this cult?

Very simple answer: Nothing. It is ad hom WRONG by default coming from the spews of the dead apparition, El Buggered Hubbard.

 

[VaD]

That's a wonderful question in the OP: What's really wrong with this cult?

Well, it's ALL wrong. So we can also ask: What's really right with this cult?

Very simple answer: Nothing. It is ad hom WRONG by default coming from the spews of the dead apparition, El Buggered Hubbard.

Thanks, Mystic!!!


What can be REALLY wrong with the wrong?

 

[secretiveoldfag]

Seems to me that this thread contains the essential truth about Scientology and that we should not lose sight of this. It has nothing to do with telepathy, which probably does exist, or the supernatural, which probably does not.

Some cultures see Scientology more clearly than others. A German, for example, knows how to start a cult in 14 easy stages:

How to create a sect or totalitarian movement:

1.You need a charismatic leader (an alpha male - Hitler/Hubbard/Miscavige).
2. You need rituals (Jugendweihe/OT levels).
3. You need an elite (Offizier/OT).
4. You need black and white thinking, elite thinking (Herrenrasse/homonovis).
5. You need uniforms and symbols (Hakenkreuz/Scientology-Symbols).
6. You need fear (SA,SS,OSA).
7. You need an enemy (Jews/SPs).
8. You need secrets (OT levels).
9. You need a control structure where everybody controls everybody, where children control their parents and parents control their children.
10. You have to organise children into elite youth groups (Hitlerjugend/Sea Org)
11. You have to keep the people working; they must not be allowed to think.
12. The distribution of knowledge is restricted.
13. You need to be able to get people to talk (Torture, Auditing, KRs)
14. You need jails and forced labour camps (KZs, Stalag, RPF)

Much of this has only been possible in the twentieth century. Even army uniforms are a relatively new thing. Effective propaganda relies on controlling information.

We could argue that since David Miscavige sits at the top of a cult, in total control, he has very little to worry about. The entity must and will continue to support him.

It is also evident that it will serve no purpose to dismantle Scientology 'in its present form' since any new form such as the Church of MR, will perpetuate all the cultogenic features of the Church of DM, just as the Church of DM perpetuates all the cultogenic features of the Church of LRH. Ron is gone but his egregor lives on.

LRH knew very well what he was about. I believe he could not believe how easy it was.

Alanzo posted elsewhere in ESMB

But...

If the PTS/SP technology, the ethics technology, and the justice technology, in Scientology were created to run an authoritarian, fascistic cult, then these parts of Scientology do work - just not the way Hubbard told you they did.

The fact that David Miscavige has been the leader of the Church of Scientology for 25 years is evidence that Hubbard created a totalitarian cult.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

What's 'really' wrong with this cult?

Pretty much the same thing that is wrong with North Korea