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Why keep doing it?

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I can respect that. I actually do respect that people can believe whatever they want to believe. I have a friend of over 30 years who is a die-hard LRH fan. She never did the OT levels but she KNOWS that everyone just needs to do OT III. In other words, she believes and trusts LRH, he can do no wrong.

I have shared with her my view of OT III (I did the level) and it is still not real to her, because she KNOWS so much more than me about the tech.

The bottom line is this: There is nothing wrong with therapy that helps someone feel better. The problem with Scientology therapy is that it is wrapped up in a hard-sell cult that will use your weaknesses and desire to improve to coerce you into a trap of endless significance, endless regging, endless Bridge actions and endless suffering when all is said and done.

I watched two good people go up the entire bridge, do massive training, do L's, do everything up to OT VIII, and I saw them F****D OVER royally, near bankruptcy, and quite mad in the end.

This is what belief in LRH will lead to.

For those on the lower bridge who thinks it's all glorious, of course it seems glorious at the bottom. Again, that is just the tasty cheese in the trap.

An insidious trap at that. It traps people who want to help and want to improve.


Ah, but Free Zoners and Indies aren't in any cult. There's the rub.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Ah, but Free Zoners and Indies aren't in any cult. There's the rub.

I can see why you'd want to say that, but, it doesn't make it true. There are cults and cults and some are more regimented and oppressive than others and a person's affiliation can vary too, to the point that 'membership' becomes as hazy as 'cult', but, there are certainly cultic aspects to *anything* having to do with Scientology and no matter how far removed from it.

Bottom line, as long as there's a 'Church' of Scientology anyone practicing 'Scientology Tech' will be tarred with the cult brush. Which is at least one good reason to choose a different name if the term cult bothers you.

Zinj
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, it is true. They aren't part of any centralized group, many of them aren't even part of any NON centralized group. Cults are organizations and, not only that, organizations with particular characteristics. Belief systems are not organizations.

if someone isn't part of CofS, they're not part of CofS. You can tar them with whatever brush you want, but that will just mean you're ignoring what they are telling you about their non membership. Most FZers are ex CofS and are not only happy to say so, but have written many criticisms of CofS. It's the same as with my late Auntie who disliked organized religion but had a deep abiding faith in Jesus Christ. She wasn't a member of a congregation or organized church of any type, yet she had her beliefs.

Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.



Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.

Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.

‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
 
But then again, if these unspoken spiritual practices or New Age enlightenments do use $cilontech, and considering your comment that hubbard plagiarized most of it to begin with, then what or who exactly are these New Agers or Spiritual practitioners copying? :confused2:


You might want to reexamine this part of my post which you may have overlooked ...

This is certainly not "problematic" as I see it. Hubbard quite literally stole from everyone, and I myself am a big supporter of Open Source.

:)


Mark A. Baker
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I can see why you'd want to say that, but, it doesn't make it true. There are cults and cults and some are more regimented and oppressive than others and a person's affiliation can vary too, to the point that 'membership' becomes as hazy as 'cult', but, there are certainly cultic aspects to *anything* having to do with Scientology and no matter how far removed from it.

Bottom line, as long as there's a 'Church' of Scientology anyone practicing 'Scientology Tech' will be tarred with the cult brush. Which is at least one good reason to choose a different name if the term cult bothers you.

Zinj

Freezone is not a cult. stop twisting words
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
As the originator of this thread, I am a little surprised but pleased that it took on a life of its own, so to speak. When I look back at the op, I can see that it could easily have been taken as provocative and smelling of intolerance, even close-mindedness.

I do have respect for anyone who uses tech that is beneficial to them, even though I believe it is flawed and would never 'do' auditing again myself. I was puzzled though and genuinely wanted to understand why.

My respect has been heightened by meeting Leon yesterday. He is one who had a 'life changing' 'good ride' in his words, in scientology. Even though he was kicked out and experienced craziness and chaos, on the Apollo for example, he retains a very laissez faire attitude to the BS and to different points of view, though not to the abuse of course.

I also think of Dulloldfart, aka Paul, for whom I have great affection. I always read his posts. When I think of him, I envision a tinkerer with a deep curiosity and the bent of an inventor, whose hobby and research into yawning tech etc can be likened to other eccentric Yorshiremen (I think he's from Yorkshire) whose hobbies may be making model ships or airplanes, or keeping pigeons. But more intellectual of course! :coolwink:

I would also grant that Trendy had a good point to make when, early in the thread, he said that looking inwards does not preclude looking outwards to the world in which we live.

Anyway, it is a good lesson to me to not be bigoted. To those of us who reject the tech, it is really of no consequence to our common aim of riddding the Cos of abusive policy and actions if others find value in the practice of auditing.

Be assured though, I shall not be holding the soup cans ever again.
 
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JBTrendy

Patron with Honors
Veda's viewpoint on Scientology

Lying is a Scientology sacrament.

That's not a put down - It's just the way it is. It's built in, and part of the "design."

To a Scientologist, the world is populated with humanoids ("wogs") with "reactive minds" - worse, these are "implanted" (maliciously installed) "reactive minds," with the main "Implant series" being the "R6 Bank."

This "R6 Bank" was supposed to be addressed, and the problem of its influence on the person, was supposed to be resolved with the old Clearing Course. The Clearing Course, which contained a bunch of dichotomies to be desensitized, PLUS a confidence-building set-up of mostly common-sense earlier "levels," also was surrounded by hype and propaganda: "Your next endless agonized trillions of years," etc., PLUS it contained VITAL TO YOUR SURVIVAL SIGNIFICANCE, from the "light in front and to the left," that IS there, that you WILL see, and even if you don't see it, it's still there, etc., and lots of ancient dates, plus detailed elaborations/descriptions of certain implants, presented as helpful additional information.

A person on the Clearing Course is instructed not to think about it, but just to "do it," and "doing it" involves holding the electrodes of an e-meter in one hand, with a piece of rubber between the two electrodes, while keeping session admin with the other hand. Each "read" (falling needle) is regarded as a peek into the previously buried past of the cosmos - and buried past of one's mind - and each floating needle is a sign that another piece of the barrier to eventual Total Freedom has been eliminated.

There's more to it than this sketchy description, of course, and there is a certain amount of "truth" in the Clearing Course, as it addresses dichotomies or opposites, which is likely to shake something loose in the person's mind. It also provides a kind of mental discipline and ritual which can contribute to a sense of personal steadiness and "certainty," yet it also places the person at the effect of the rest of its contents, the never-fully-explained (but very important) significances, and the e-meter, used as a truth-detector.

For a short time, people completing the Clearing Course wrote great Success Stories, as it was assumed that the final barrier to full OT had been removed, and the person was on the brink of OT, not the watered down OT presented to disappointed long-duration pcs by Scientology sales and PR people (after their money has been taken), but real OT, as in able to DO things in the physical universe without need of a body.

People were told that, once they'd done the Clearing Course (which does contain some "truth," which serves as a "solvent"), that they'd be able to then do "Route 1" as found in the book 'Creation of Human Ability'. Some people did so, and those that were dissatisfied with the results (in other words, they couldn't do it), were - by accounts - often known to emotionally collapse. Why? Because their failure to successfully do "Route 1" was a sign that they'd falsely attested to the Clearing Course.

Considering the "deadly seriousness" of Scientology and its confidential "Advanced levels," this sense of dread at having falsely attested and having failed was perhaps understandable. Later, it was explained that such people had come up against other factors in the "Bank" that had overwhelmed them when they tried to use their OT abilities.

Thus came OT 2, which looks a lot like Clearing Course part 2, and then came OT 3.

(Note: This is a very shorthand account.)

While these confidential and vital to every one's survival levels, that contained elaborate details and instructions, and previously buried information that no one could discover on his own but needed to be told (with an e-meter, used a truth-detector, to confirm) were being introduced into Scientology, so were the SP Doctrine, Disconnection, the Fair Game Law, (and Security Checking had already been around for 5 years), plus there was a new branch of Scientology specializing in Front groups, Public Relations, and covert Intelligence.

Hard sell was also introduced, plus the giant LRH photo which was applauded many times every day (Bronze busts of Hubbard had been introduced somewhat earlier, in 1963).

It's interesting to note that, by that time, also (mid 1960s) enough of Hubbard's (previously used a a hoax black-propaganda vehicle to attack his perceived enemies, and psychiatry) "Russian textbook on Brainwashing" was being used on Scientologists, that the Anderson Report (of Australia) noted the similarities between ideas and practices in that "textbook" and Scientology. This after Scientology had - per Hubbard's instructions - sent a copy of the Dianetic and Scientology-denouncing "Russian communist textbook" to the Australian Board of Inquiry to discredit any critics of Scientology as being Communists or Communist sympathizers. To put it mildly, that attempt at manipulation backfired - an early foot bullet.

Then came the Sea Org with Hubbard becoming the Commodore.

In the early 1970s, Hubbard further developed his PR and Propaganda tech, his Battle Tactics tech, and (overt and covert) data collection and (covert) attack-Intelligence tech, and then introduced his Rehabilitation tech (RPF and RPF's RPF tech).

By then the "Scientology package" was pretty much complete.

It was after this time that most people became involved with Scientology, and its mix of solvent&glue, cheese&trap, and bait&switch.

And when someone is discussing Scientology with a Scientologist, he or she is discussing Scientology with someone who has been influenced by the above, and effectively psychologically overwhelmed by it - despite protestations by the person, no matter how vehement, and no matter how clever or slick.

This makes discussing Scientology with Scientologists "problematic."

Thanks Veda for this brilliant briefing and merci Kutta for your ack.

This is definitely a good thread.

AlL2UALL :clap::clap::clap:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I also think of Dulloldfart, aka Paul, for whom I have great affection. I always read his posts. When I think of him, I envision a tinkerer with a deep curiosity and the bent of an inventor, whose hobby and research into yawning tech etc can be likened to other eccentric Yorshiremen (I think he's from Yorkshire) whose hobbies may be making model ships or airplanes, or keeping pigeons. But more intellectual of course! :coolwink:

Thank you. I'm from London, but now live in the northeast of England in Newcastle.

Paul
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
How I see Paul:

Elf_Duesentrieb.jpg


Zinj
 

Veda

Sponsor
My post, on another thread, presented a video containing some useful information from someone who eventually went bonkers (Mike McClaughry) - hopefully he's better by now.

On the topic of useful information by someone who later went bonkers, here's Franklin Jones' commentary on Scientology's OT levels. Jones is a former Scientologist, OT 7, who later became a "god man" and started his own cult. This commentary was written long before that unfortunate development.

The below is only loosely related to this thread, but since I've written this much already, here it is (posted earlier by Zinj, this section is from a book by Jones - now Da Free John, etc.:

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=109276&postcount=2

The complete statement: http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/KneeofListening/book/chapter12.html
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutta
I also think of Dulloldfart, aka Paul, for whom I have great affection. I always read his posts. When I think of him, I envision a tinkerer with a deep curiosity and the bent of an inventor, whose hobby and research into yawning tech etc can be likened to other eccentric Yorshiremen (I think he's from Yorkshire) whose hobbies may be making model ships or airplanes, or keeping pigeons. But more intellectual of course!


From DOF:
Thank you. I'm from London, but now live in the northeast of England in Newcastle.

Well then, there you go, northeast England, London, Yorkshire, is there a difference with regard to eccentricity? Please regard my comments as exceptionally complimentary. I have considerable admiration for eccentricity. :)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Well then, there you go, northeast England, London, Yorkshire, is there a difference with regard to eccentricity? Please regard my comments as exceptionally complimentary. I have considerable admiration for eccentricity. :)

:hug:

Paul
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
My post, on another thread, presented a video containing some useful information from someone who eventually went bonkers (Mike McClaughry) - hopefully he's better by now.
<...snip>
The McClaughry videos paint a chilling picture of GO/OSA ops run against "enemies of scientology", all the moreso because they're pretty accurate recollections in my estimation.
 
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