WTF is the Freezone?

[Oneflewover]

No, this is good, it clarifies alot. I think you are more precise with regards what a person accepts and their shard responsibility for the results. But I just don't see the potential benefit even from someone with understanding and experience, who didn't fall into the trap rewritting or expanding on it. It is still flawed at the fundamental level. The way the foundation is whatever is build upon it will fail.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Well, I don't agree. I think there is some fundamental value, but I don't see how that will be brought out under the current state of affairs.

LRH discovered some basics, (or rediscovered, borrowed, stole, commandeered, what have you), that I find no fault with. And I find them so very basic that they are about as broadly applicable as anything out there.

But he piled so much baggage on top, that sifting through it is very tough. And it's made much more tough by that fact that he created a cult to make sure it will only ever be sifted according to his stringent instructions.

That is what it is.

But people like Filbert, Pilot, L Kin, Alan, Mike G, Ed Dawson, Max Sandor, Zivorad, Flemming Funch, Rowland Barkely, Bill Robertson, the anonymous clearbird guy, and many others, have taken some basic principles, or been inspired by some LRH compiled tech, and gone on to push the envelop without all the Gobal domination baggage LRH heaped on.

That's where differentiation is beginning to occur, and where the Freezone, and by now I'm sure Ex-freezone comes in to play.

Auditing tech is just LRH's applications of those same basics, as well as many other fine research auditors applications, with LRH taking credit. Even though his research line appears to have dead ended, it still provides a pilot project and perhaps a datum of comparable magnitude for other researchers, of purer more altruistic purposes to use to set of on their own line of research using certain LRH basics as a starting point, and his mistakes and breakthroughs as pointers along the way.

You almost have to disregard the subject as it's developed to now, and look at the post LRH developments newly to see how the subject is evolving back towards a help, and hand up flow.

But it'll be some time (probably decades) before the value can sift into public use without the taint that currently attaches.

Or at least that's my projection on it.

But just so as not to be jabbering into a vacuum, one example I find extremely valuable from LRH tech that I find infinitely useful, is the concept of as-is. I consider that a true bit of basic knowledge, which is so handy, I can't imagine it's not being there as a tool.

Much less basic, but still of very high value is the inter-relatedness of the triangle points of ARC, KRC, BE Do Have. these can be used, and even where they've been abused, and misused, they can still be used for more benevolent effects and understandings.

That's what I mean.

 

[thetanic]

LRH discovered some basics, (or rediscovered, borrowed, stole, commandeered, what have you)

Syncretized.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Well, I don't agree. I think there is some fundamental value, but I don't see how that will be brought out under the current state of affairs.

LRH discovered some basics, (or rediscovered, borrowed, stole, commandeered, what have you), that I find no fault with. And I find them so very basic that they are about as broadly applicable as anything out there.

But he piled so much baggage on top, that sifting through it is very tough. And it's made much more tough by that fact that he created a cult to make sure it will only ever be sifted according to his stringent instructions.

That is what it is.

But people like Filbert, Pilot, L Kin, Alan, Mike G, Ed Dawson, Max Sandor, Zivorad, Flemming Funch, Rowland Barkely, Bill Robertson, the anonymous clearbird guy, and many others, have taken some basic principles, or been inspired by some LRH compiled tech, and gone on to push the envelop without all the Gobal domination baggage LRH heaped on.

That's where differentiation is beginning to occur, and where the Freezone, and by now I'm sure Ex-freezone comes in to play.

Auditing tech is just LRH's applications of those same basics, as well as many other fine research auditors applications, with LRH taking credit. Even though his research line appears to have dead ended, it still provides a pilot project and perhaps a datum of comparable magnitude for other researchers, of purer more altruistic purposes to use to set of on their own line of research using certain LRH basics as a starting point, and his mistakes and breakthroughs as pointers along the way.

You almost have to disregard the subject as it's developed to now, and look at the post LRH developments newly to see how the subject is evolving back towards a help, and hand up flow.

But it'll be some time (probably decades) before the value can sift into public use without the taint that currently attaches.

Or at least that's my projection on it.

But just so as not to be jabbering into a vacuum, one example I find extremely valuable from LRH tech that I find infinitely useful, is the concept of as-is. I consider that a true bit of basic knowledge, which is so handy, I can't imagine it's not being there as a tool.

Much less basic, but still of very high value is the inter-relatedness of the triangle points of ARC, KRC, BE Do Have. these can be used, and even where they've been abused, and misused, they can still be used for more benevolent effects and understandings.

That's what I mean.

Thanks for this post. I would so much like to believe what you say is true, but I feel for me it would involve so much self-deception that I would be kidding myself with false hopes. I just don't see it that way from reasoning or observation. I hope some good can come out of Scientology, but I think any good that comes out will be in spite of Scientology and the mental and spiritual pitfalls built into the very basic fundamental nature of it. But like you say, it will take time. History will decide.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Alan]

No, this is good, it clarifies alot. I think you are more precise with regards what a person accepts and their shard responsibility for the results. But I just don't see the potential benefit even from someone with understanding and experience, who didn't fall into the trap rewritting or expanding on it. It is still flawed at the fundamental level.

The way the foundation is whatever is build upon it will fail.

The Anabaptist Jacques

The fundamental level is; two beings applying the knowledge and know-how.

Scientology Policy and Tech is designed to make LRH or DM right!

If you make LRH or DM right you are KSWing.

If you make LRH or DM wrong you are an SP.

Each Div, Dept, or Org is a multi-layered, multi-dynamics serv fac - the combination of ALL Scio Orgs and Front Groups are just greater multi-layered, multi-dynamics serv facs - each staff member is part of the serv fac factory.

Serv Facs contain no reciprocation, no warmth, no kindness, no love - they are one way flows that consume all they come in contact with.

To break the spell of the cult - run variations of this:

How have I used Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) to make myself right?

How have I used Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) to make others wrong?

(And rest of serv fac commands.)

Or, you can run the Serv Facs this style:

How have Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) and I made ourselves right?

How have Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) and I made others wrong?

(And rest of serv fac commands.)



Alan

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The fundamental level is; two beings applying the knowledge and know-how.

Scientology Policy and Tech is designed to make LRH or DM right!

If you make LRH or DM right you are KSWing.

If you make LRH or DM wrong you are an SP.

Each Div, Dept, or Org is a multi-layered, multi-dynamics serv fac - the combination of ALL Scio Orgs and Front Groups are just greater multi-layered, multi-dynamics serv facs - each staff member is part of the serv fac factory.

Serv Facs contain no reciprocation, no warmth, no kindness, no love - they are one way flows that consume all they come in contact with.

To break the spell of the cult - run variations of this:

How have I used Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) to make myself right?

How have I used Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) to make others wrong?

(And rest of serv fac commands.)

Or, you can run the Serv Facs this style:

How have Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) and I made ourselves right?

How have Scientology (Tech, Ethics, CMO, OSA, GO, SO, Reging, My Hat, etc.) and I made others wrong?

(And rest of serv fac commands.)



Alan

This is truth. So far as it goes.

It leaves out that this analysis also applies to ALL OTHER GROUP based activities. I'm sure Alan is aware of that and merely wrote this up to address the primary theme of "What's the Matter with Scientology?".

I'm not equally as certain that others on the list "grok" how this may apply to other pet prejudices & groups.

As I've stated before & elsewhere, the mechanism of the "ser fac" and the technology to address "ser facs" are VERY POWERFUL tools. It is incredibly useful to be able to spot them, understand, & "de-fang".

On one of the freezone upper level boards in recent months one of the contributors posted an extended version of a similar program intended to address just exactly these sorts of "Individual & Group Out-Ethics" situations where an individual has difficulty acknowledging his own responsibility for & contributions to group out-ethics.


Mark A. Baker

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

You guys don't get it. I don't think running anything makes a difference, except for some euphoric reaction. I'm not looking for the right process to run; I think running processes is part of the insanity. I understand that from inside the cave it looks fine to you. But when you leave the cave, mentaly and spiritually, you'll find a whole world of sunshine and beuaty, instead of the shadows on the wall that you are looking at and think is reality. This is my analogy based on Plato's Alleghory of the Cave. That applies exactly to this situation. You guys seem to be arguing the nature of shadows and not reality or truth.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Pixie]

You guys don't get it. I don't think running anything makes a difference, except for some euphoric reaction. I'm not looking for the right process to run; I think running processes is part of the insanity. I understand that from inside the cave it looks fine to you. But when you leave the cave, mentaly and spiritually, you'll find a whole world of sunshine and beuaty, instead of the shadows on the wall that you are looking at and think is reality. This is my analogy based on Plato's Alleghory of the Cave. That applies exactly to this situation. You guys seem to be arguing the nature of shadows and not reality or truth.

The Anabaptist Jacques

.......

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

You guys don't get it. I don't think running anything makes a difference, except for some euphoric reaction. I'm not looking for the right process to run; I think running processes is part of the insanity. I understand that from inside the cave it looks fine to you. But when you leave the cave, mentally and spiritually, you'll find a whole world of sunshine and beuaty, instead of the shadows on the wall that you are looking at and think is reality. This is my analogy based on Plato's Alleghory of the Cave. That applies exactly to this situation. You guys seem to be arguing the nature of shadows and not reality or truth.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I've tried that viewpoint, Jacques (or one very similar), and it didn't work for me. If it does for you - great.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I've tried that viewpoint, Jacques (or one very similar), and it didn't work for me. If it does for you - great.

That's cool. What's glue for you is glue for you (just kiding). But I have been meaning to ask you for sometime what ever happened to the Airplane's first singer? Did she form some other group?

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

That's cool. What's glue for you is glue for you (just kiding). But I have been meaning to ask you for sometime what ever happened to the Airplane's first singer? Did she form some other group?

The Anabaptist Jacques

She was pregnant, and left to have a baby;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signe_Toly_Anderson

She had a solo singing career, but never sang in a major league rock band again though she guested with Jefferson Starship a few times.

Unfortunately the story isn't good at the moment; I didn't know about it when I chose her photo as my avatar. She's got cancer and is short of money for medical bills and expenses.

http://www.airplane.freeserve.co.uk/airplane.htm

 

[nw2394]

If I ever wanted to do Scn again I would do A - E. Seriously.

Well that's fair enough of course. But I am not sure why you started the thread really, given that this statement suggests you know all you need to know already (or at least think you do).

Have a nice day Emms

Nick

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Unlike CofS, non CofS Scn'ists are free to pursue their own interests without seeking accreditation or to be part of an official type group. So, outside CofS, there are people who practice individually. Some ally with each other, some don't. There are some cyber associations and there are some FZers who are more organized than others. There're lots of people who are pretty much on their own, taking pcs, etc. The assocations FZers form are pretty unofficial, mostly, though the Ron's Org crowd seems pretty well organized. People ally, people then break off alliances, they do what they want.

Really, it's better this way. Dn was, in 50 to 52 a grassroots movement though I'm sure Hubbard even then had grand plans. But in any event, it seems to work out better that way. I distrust too much organization because it ends up being corrupt.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thanks. I watched the video. They all seem like nice people.

I didn't know Rey Robles was a FZ leader.

I saw him talk at the 2005 FZ convention. He had his own FZ org in Reno for a while.

 

[Emma]

Well that's fair enough of course. But I am not sure why you started the thread really, given that this statement suggests you know all you need to know already (or at least think you do).

Have a nice day Emms

Nick

I came to that conclusion AFTER starting the thread.

It's just my opinion, but the Freezone seems to not really be scientology. It's kinda close, but not really. And that's totally fine for some people. OTOH, Scientology isn't really scientology either, but at least I know what I'm getting.

You have a nice day too!

p.s. I'd never do A - E.

 

[nw2394]

p.s. I'd never do A - E.

Well, we at least have that in common!

Nick

 

[Oneflewover]

Thanks for this post. I would so much like to believe what you say is true, but I feel for me it would involve so much self-deception that I would be kidding myself with false hopes. I just don't see it that way from reasoning or observation. I hope some good can come out of Scientology, but I think any good that comes out will be in spite of Scientology and the mental and spiritual pitfalls built into the very basic fundamental nature of it. But like you say, it will take time. History will decide.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I look forward to seeing what comes out of the generation once removed from direct contact with the church or cult. The children or students of the researchers who set out on their own, with the realization that the original venue became a cult. They should be able to evaluate the basic principles and techniques without the baggage added in which would try to head down the cult path again.

It may not take as long as you'd think. Just like you get critics and protestors who've never been in a CofS, you're getting auditors training and PC's being audited in the freezone who've never been in a CofS.

And when you chat with them, you see an immediate difference. They really show signs of doing their own thinking.

 

[Alan]

You guys don't get it. I don't think running anything makes a difference, except for some euphoric reaction. I'm not looking for the right process to run; I think running processes is part of the insanity. I understand that from inside the cave it looks fine to you. But when you leave the cave, mentaly and spiritually, you'll find a whole world of sunshine and beuaty, instead of the shadows on the wall that you are looking at and think is reality. This is my analogy based on Plato's Alleghory of the Cave. That applies exactly to this situation. You guys seem to be arguing the nature of shadows and not reality or truth.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Huh?

Hey! Shadowman - How come you don't observe and experience shimmering joy, glorious sunshine, golden truths and breathtaking PTs and future beauty when you run a process?

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Disgusting. Violates the auditors code to not keep an auditing appointment--it's invalidative, makes the pc think he/she is not important to the auditor.

Hubbard changed the name from "Repair Program" too, although I can't recall if it's "Progress Program" or "Advance Program". After 35 years you'd think I could remember! It just shows that they are both PR names, whereas "Repair Program" actually communicates something, whatever the underlying validity of the name.

Paul

That wasn't the only time I didn't feel important. I'd call with a situation and she say "I only have a minute". Well, my situation wasn't only going to take a minute. She swore delivering was her top priority, but actions speak louder than words in my book. Her actions always said otherwise.

 

[Leon]

The Freezone is FREE. That's the essence of it. We have the original goals we had in Scientology and we have taken with us from there what makes sense to us and has value for us. How we now go about attaining those goals is entirely up to our own free choice.

In a funny way it is very similar to the Anglicans/Episcoplalians of today. You are free to believe and do whatever you like, just don't go making an issue of what someone else likes to believe or practice.

It's called Freedom.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Huh?

Hey! Shadowman - How come you don't observe and experience shimmering joy, glorious sunshine, golden truths and breathtaking PTs and future beauty when you run a process?

Because I don't kid myself about it. You can develop all your processes and C/Ses etc. etc., but it is still just shadows on the wall. Feel free to watch the shadows gentlemen, its your life. But don't expect not to be laughed at and pitied.

The Anabaptist Jacques