MainStream Society's Humiliation of Minority Spiritual and Religious Pursuits

[Clay Pigeon]

I had an interesting talk with a never in today on the OPEN Facebook group called SCIENTOLOGY DEPROGRAMMING.

Philip Fairbanks
I was never in Scientology but after years of reading Campbell, Jung and countless NLP books from Structure of Magic on I realized the insidious nature of the CULT is that theres a baby in the bathwater.

I fell for Thelema and after a weird experience I couldn't explain spent years studying and trying to do the rituals. To this day though I want nothing to do with Crowley, Thelema or any orgs of which thankfully I was never a member, but there were parts of the (like Hubbard's, culled together from dozens of mysticisms before) practices that seemed to work.

As to deciding where the baby is in the bathwater or if a partially faulty set of "principles" cobbled together from other spiritualist hoaxers like Crowley for instance, can be practiced safely independent of the primary cult, as Mueller would say: I cant speak to that.

AlanzosBlog.com
One of the most insidious aspects of having been in #Scientology is the stigma mainstream society places on Exes for having found a "baby" in the bathwater at all.

Most Exes under this mainstream humiliation will deny that there was ever a baby in the first place - just to show that they are not "brainwashed" any more, and mainstream society can accept them again.
This is a social pressure from mainstream society down onto members and former members of minority religious and spiritual pursuits. It's easy to see if you take an example outside of Scientology.

Egypt, for example, has a mainstream society that is primarily Islamic. But there have been a small group of Christians in Alexandria and Cairo for 2000 years called the Coptics.

Mainstream Egyptians need an explanation for why these people rejected the mainstream and chose to be Christian instead. So they say they did not choose at all - they were brainwashed or hypnotized or deceived into having beliefs that do not conform to theirs.

This social pressure from mainstream society is rarely talked about any more among Ex "cult" members. The anticult movement beliefs of blaming the brainwashing dominate the worldviews of Exes now, and punishes them for rejecting mainstream religion and daring to find an alternative.

Exes now are pressured to forget the "baby" they knew in Scientology, which was the reason they willingly and intentionally chose, every day, to be a Scientologist.

When that baby disappeared, or if they no longer needed that baby, they left Scientology. And then they had to apologize to everybody in mainstream society for why they did what they did. "I was brainwashed" is an easy, and very self-destructive, way of explaining yourself so you can be acceptable again.

What if Exes stopped apologizing for themselves?

What if they valued the lessons they learned and recognized that getting out of a cult was not something to recover from, but something that they were strengthened by?

#ScientologytheAftermath
#ExJW
#ExMormon
#ExCult

Philip Fairbanks
I'm sure it's different depending on the individual and in some cases maybe best to just make a clean break. Though I was never in a cult I've found in studying them the tactics employed are the same as a few abusive sexes. There are, for instance, certain movies or songs I cant, rather wont listen to because it brings back all of that trauma. It'd be healthier maybe if i just faced it but I have to recover at my speed. So I can respect and empathize with folks regardless what line they're on.

AlanzosBlog.com
Philip Fairbanks Some of the most abusive and fanatical people in Scientology, such as Mike Rinder and Chris Shelton, need to blame the brainwashing for how they acted while in the cult.

But if you never harmed anyone in #Scientology, and never would - which is 99.9% of the people who were involved - you don't need to apologize, or to blame something else for why you were in Scientology.
A person can be made to believe that they experienced trauma, or to re-interpret their experiences as trauma. They can build up a kind of socially constructed nightmare and tell themselves continually that they were traumatized - simply because they believed something different from the mainstream.

Rachel Bernstein, the cult counselor says that "every day you spend in a cult causes damage."

No it doesn't.

THIS IS NOT DENYING ANYONE WHO WAS TRAUMATIZED AND WHO NEEDS HELP.

This is simply saying that there are more productive and constructive (and more true) alternatives to explain to yourself why you were in a "cult" than the anticult movement belief system allows.

The baby in the bathwater is one thing...

The babysitter is a fukkin' NAZI!!!

 

[Alanzo]

I am an expert on this subject. You can go to the troll's website and see all the great people the troll hates and attacks. You can even see that HelluvaHoax had an entire blog essay dedicated to him as the winner of "ESMB'S BIGGEST ASSHOLE".

LOL.

You have absolutely no sense of humor. Your arrogance is colossal.

<deleted>.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.
A SPECIAL R-FACTOR FROM BERNIE THE BLOGGER TO
EX-CLIENTS WHO HAVE STUCK ATTENTION ON THE PAST!

First, let me say that I still love all of you so much!

I know you people who claim you lost 65 Billion dollars are very critical of me. But look at yourselves, look at how you have become haters and cult members.

You irrationally accuse me of "brainwashing" you into giving me your life's savings. But that's because you are in a hate-cult. I never "brainwashed" you. I simply told you "Big Lies" and psychologically manipulated you with "Gaslighting". The fact that you call it "brainwashing" proves that you are mentally ill haters and assholes. Get over your toxic blame, you are only hurting yourself.

PRO-TIP: It's really so important to not use the harsh term "brainwashing" when its merely something as innocent as lying, tricking, embezzling, manipulatively defrauding and stealing.

P.

 

[lotus]

.

Imagine for a moment, as vulgar and despicable as it would be, if Madoff's attorney went all over the internet, getting banned everywhere. And then the attorney shows up on the website of ESMB. Ex Suckers (of) Madoff Bullshit.

That would be insane, wouldn't it.

Oh! wait a minute Hoaxyboy!
I see your are overwhelmed with HE&R here

Your are pissed and grieving for being called a "arsehole"

I gave a look on the board to find words of wisdom, to allow a profound healing you need !



giggle

Alanzo

Because when you are pissed beyond all ken, you're not thinking accurately. And if you are engaged in some kind of "recovery"
....
then you need to be thinking accurately.

 

[Me and My Self]

I really, really hate mudslinging.

 

[lotus]

I really, really hate mudslinging.

Unfortunately, it happens here and there on the board..

Don't worry, it comes and it goes like in the real life..no people has been hurt and won't be.

I must admit it has been weird on the board lately and not that fun... (Speaking for myself)
It's like the board has been taken over by weirdos cults preachers and we are the bad people !

 

[lotus]

LOL.



And you are m'y ESMB's Biggest guru threat

FIFY

 

[lotus]

A short interlude paid by our sponsors
The anti-scieno cult
(Who else woul sponsor an exe board???)

I love all Neil Diamond songs, but It appears he has now Parkinson and won't play anymore.
We all are aging and time goes fast.

 

[Emma]

If we dispense with the name calling and reminders of ESMB history, I think what is being discussed here is two different viewpoints.

1. My experience in Scientology is how I perceive it to be. Reports from other people just confirm what I already knew.
2. My experience in Scientology has been warped by reports from others and is now seen as worse than what is was because of confirmation bias.

Both of these arguments have validity. I just wish they could be discussed without name calling & the laziness of meme posting.

Is that even possible?

 

[Alanzo]

If we dispense with the name calling and reminders of ESMB history, I think what is being discussed here is two different viewpoints.

1. My experience in Scientology is how I perceive it to be. Reports from other people just confirm what I already knew.
2. My experience in Scientology has been warped by reports from others and is now seen as worse than what is was because of confirmation bias.

Both of these arguments have validity. I just wish they could be discussed without name calling & the laziness of meme posting.

Is that even possible?

I'm doing my best to stay on the subject.

But my meme was awesome and I just couldn't let it go to waste.

I'll watch that in future.

 

[Emma]

I'm doing my best to stay on the subject.

But my meme was awesome and I just couldn't let it go to waste.

I'll watch that in future.

No, your meme is not awesome. It's just an attack. It doesn't make anyone think or rethink. It's not funny. It's not ironic.

Why don't you just give us an example, from your own life, of why you believe what you believe. Forget the "he's wrong/she's wrong/it's all bad" and just calmly tell us without trying to convert anyone to your way of thinking.

 

[Alanzo]

No, your meme is not awesome. It's just an attack. It doesn't make anyone think or rethink. It's not funny. It's not ironic.

Why don't you just give us an example, from your own life, of why you believe what you believe. Forget the "he's wrong/she's wrong/it's all bad" and just calmly tell us without trying to convert anyone to your way of thinking.

I believe that meme expresses something that I personally experienced as an Anti-Scientologist for 15 years.

I read a book by Martin Seligman named "Learned Optimism". It taught me to listen to my own self talk, and to be more aware of it. It taught me that when I told myself something over and over such as "My life was completely derailed by Scientology!" I should stop and examine that. There is a disputation process in the book that is very useful. You learn to ask yourself if this is really true. And in exactly what way is it true?

For instance, I used a metaphor in that phrase "derail". What exactly do I mean by "derail"? How, exactly, in what real way, did Scientology derail my life?

The more I did this, the more I realized that I was very undisciplined in my thinking. I let my emotions pick my words for me rather than trying to accurately depict the real world. I was continually playing 'trauma loops' over and over to myself. I found that a lot of the things I was telling myself were simplistic - if they were even true at all. They were always slanted to blame Scientology for my own life - even if I was more responsible for my own life than Scientology ever was. As I re-worded these trauma loops, and as I worked them to be a more accurate reflection of reality, I felt almost instant relief.

This led me to studying more about cognitive distortions from cognitive behavioral therapy.

And this led me to spotting how damaging it was for me to be an anti-Scientologist for so long - where whoever can word something in the most negative way gets the most praise from other members of the group.

I realized that in exactly this way, Anti-Scientology is a socially constructed nightmare.

And then I began to come up with lot more positive, constructive, and ACCURATE ways to describe my experience in Scientology. 15 years is a long time to do that to yourself.

I'm pretty positive I'm not the only Ex-Scientologist to have done this to himself

 

[Gib]

I believe that meme expresses something that I personally experienced as an Anti-Scientologist for 15 years.

I read a book by Martin Seligman named "Learned Optimism". It taught me to listen to my own self talk, and to be more aware of it. It taught me that when I told myself something over and over such as "My life was completely derailed by Scientology!" I should stop and examine that. There is a disputation process in the book that is very useful. You learn to ask yourself if this is really true. And in exactly what way is it true?

For instance, I used a metaphor in that phrase "derail". What exactly do I mean by "derail"? How, exactly, in what real way, did Scientology derail my life?

The more I did this, the more I realized that I was very undisciplined in my thinking. I let my emotions pick my words for me rather than trying to accurately depict the real world. I was continually playing 'trauma loops' over and over to myself. I found that a lot of the things I was telling myself were simplistic - if they were even true at all. They were always slanted to blame Scientology for my own life - even if I was more responsible for my own life than Scientology ever was. As I re-worded these trauma loops, and as I worked them to be a more accurate reflection of reality, I felt almost instant relief.

This led me to studying more about cognitive distortions from cognitive behavioral therapy.

And this led me to spotting how damaging it was for me to be an anti-Scientologist for so long - where whoever can word something in the most negative way gets the most praise from other members of the group.

I realized that in exactly this way, Anti-Scientology is a socially constructed nightmare.

And then I began to come up with lot more positive, constructive, and ACCURATE ways to describe my experience in Scientology. 15 years is a long time to do that to yourself.

I'm pretty positive I'm not the only Ex-Scientologist to have done this to himself

I'm anti scientology simply because I realized there are no clears or ot's and there is no bridge to total freedom.

Do you still believe in clear, ot and a bridge to total freedom, Alanzo?

 

[Emma]

I believe that meme expresses something that I personally experienced as an Anti-Scientologist for 15 years.

OK. It's your personal experience. You were a very good Anti-Scientologist by the way!

The rest of your post got me thinking about my own journey in and out. I think there is some validity to what you say. Group-think is alive and well in any group - big or small. You just have to watch Fox News and then MSNBC. You'd think there are two Americas. Neither side can concede an inch to the other. That's why I'm equally fascinated and repulsed by politics.

This group-think has always been a point of contention in Scientology criticism. You probably saw the a.r.s wars in the Minton days. There was the group who wouldn't allow criticism of Minton, and those who criticised him. It was a war! The criticism (from my viewpoint) was warranted, but also the support was warranted. But as time went on, each side dug their heels in and wouldn't budge. We ended up with two groups (named by Zinj) as "the Buttersquashers" and the "Mintonistas". It got so bad that any chance of intelligent, nuanced conversation was gone. Those factions still exist today.

I can come up with one example in my own life that might fit what you experienced. I was pretty down on myself for a long time. I felt stupid for joining Scientology & that my trust had been betrayed. My problems had been taken advantage of. All true to one degree or another.

Then one day, (after a psychology appointment) I did a similar thing to what you have done. Instead of just looking at the negative, I tried to find out what it was I was looking for when I joined, and what it was that kept me there.

After a lot of contemplation, I realised that what I got out of Scientology, and what kept me there, was the group dynamic. This is the pull that nearly all religions and social groups have. The sameness of thought. The comfortable agreement. The lack of need for independent thought. In Scientology all your thinking is done for you. If it's written it's true. This was such a relief. I certainly wasn't able to figure out life on my own, so I put my faith in someone to do it for me.

This realisation stung. However it did open the door for further examination of where I was (and still am) failing in life. Thinking for yourself is hard. You have to read a lot. You have to remove emotion. You have to view all sides of an argument equally. You have to apply logic. Who wants to do that when it's easier to accept a slogan?

I realised that you have to make choices on what you really look into and what you don't. One example is Climate change. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a geologist. There are two camps, deniers & believers. Where do I fit? I read bits & pieces of both arguments. Both seem to have validity. So where do I sit? I tend to position myself with the people who have made the most sense to me in the past, given their qualifications and experience. One of these people is Michael Schumer. He presents the most logical and science based argument to me. So if someone asks me whether I "believe" in climate change, and if I have to answer, I say "Based on what I've read, and who I've read, my feelings are that it is more likely true than untrue". But the fact remains that I don't know. Climate change is one of those areas that I can't actually know, so I go with the belief that seems the most logical. I'm rambling on here, but my point is that sometimes, it's ok to let someone do the thinking for you. You can't KNOW everything.

But when it comes to my own life, the things I NEED to know about myself, I can't depend on anyone else to think it for me. That was my mistake. I let Scientology do my thinking for me. I'm glad I learned my lesson. I'm glad I can take this lesson with me. If I hadn't joined Scientology I may never have learned this lesson. I can view that as something positive from my Scientology experience.

The other thing that I got out of this exercise, is that I need friends. I had convinced myself that I could survive as an island. It's not true. That's another thing that the Scientology experience taught me. I was willing to put up with abuses just to stay connected. Now my biggest "job" in life is to find & form meaningful connection.

I'm not sure if this is in any way related to your post, but this is what I thought of when reading your post.

 

[lotus]

Okay, @Alanzo your point is well made!
Here is my opinion.

This is YOUR path and your revelations.
Each one walk his own path out of any mental or cognitive distorsion.(if any)

Some people here have walked for a long time their healing path with the observation (contemplation) of their thoughts, cognitive distorsions and critical thinking while fully, or partially ( To their pace) integrating their cult experience which may relate as the experience of abuses.

Some are recently out and are doing quite a good job, since the internet makes it possible to get a wider span of information to help getting understanding.

Not all people are frantically thinking about scientology or encountering obssessive or compulsive thinking neither need to handle people about it..

Many exes have graduated and what's left , as their opinion that may differs from yours, is not wrong because it doesn't match your "cognitions"

In the event you need to convince people or change their thinking... You might be only changing one compulsion for anotner one. Many people do that on a path to changing cognitions. An obsession regarding the cult for another one regarding the anti-scn cult might be an example??...
And that would make one a blind trying to lead the blinds...

This is why most of us refrain to try to "enlight" people...we don't have any more enlightement than others..only a different experience. This is why people share..to learn from eachother

Your truth is only your personnal truth..it is not THE Truth..each one has his own truth which is the right one on his one unique path...

I would question why I need people to adhere to my truth in rejecting theirs?? ( I actually did that years ago and it leaded to a great relief)

The pure motivation in helping people ( when they ask for such help) is helping them to get the tools to walk their own path and find their one truth...( for example how to meditate, sharing a good book about cognitive distorsion..and tell how we gain from it...)

 

[Emma]

A little interlude paid by our sponsors
The anti-scieno cult
(Who else woul sponsor an exe board???)

I love all Neil Diamond songs, but It appears he has now Parkinson and won't play anymore.
We all are aging and time goes fast.

One of my favourites of his.

I went 3 times to his concerts in Australia. For a long time I thought he would never come out but then around 1989/90 I was reading a newspaper and saw that he's announced an Australian tour. I was thrilled. My mother absolutely adored him and I had promised myself that if he never came out to Australia, one day I would make enough money to fly her to America to see him. 4 tickets to his concerts with a little bit cheaper (but not much!)

Anyway, we went and also went the next 2 times he came out. He filled our stadiums over & over. I noticed a funny thing while we leaving the arena one night. People were everywhere and I heard a man asking his wife where their daughter had gone. The wife said she didn't know and so he started calling her name. "Shilo! Shilo where are you?" True story.

 

[lotus]

Lucky you are Emma!
What great times it must have been there.

It's only when looking for tickets recently I found out it's too late!

Do you know the songs on the album "Jonathan Livingston seagull" ??
I can say for sure those songs saved my life when I left the cult for good, a broken soul. I couldn't communicate for week but only listen to him singing.

Thanks for sharing the story.

 

[Emma]

Yes, I do know those songs. In fact I would say I know all Neil Diamond songs very well as they were all I heard as a kid . I think I heard "Hot August Night" at least once a week for 12 years. I have all his songs on a thumb drive in my car so I can listen whenever I want. Listening to him keeps me connected to my mum. We played "Be" at her funeral.

 

[Dulloldfart]

LOL.

You have absolutely no sense of humor. Your arrogance is colossal.

And you are ESMB's Biggest Asshole.

We want all this drama again?

Paul

 

[Wilbur]

Because when you are pissed beyond all ken, you're not thinking accurately. And if you are engaged in some kind of "recovery" from Scientology, or trying to learn and evolve from your experience, then you need to be thinking accurately.

And when you get in with a bunch of people who keep each other pissed beyond all ken, and actually attack other people who are not that pissed any more, and ban and discredit others who keep learning and evolve to disagree with them, then you just stagnate and keep it going on yourself for years.

At first it's good to be given the freedom to blast Scientology, and who you used to be as a Scientologist. But over time, it becomes toxic and corrosive to your soul to be telling yourself these stories that are not accurate about yourself, and which are over the top negatively exaggerated.

You can drag out, multiply and turbo-charge any damage you suffered in Scientology by doing this.

I speak from experience here.

So, just like I wrote about Scientology while I was getting out of that, and went to where Scientologists were on the Internet to tell them what I found, I'm doing the same thing with anti-Scientologists.

And here's the wild part: anti-Scientologists act the same way Scientologists do when their beliefs are challenged. The same tribalism that exists in Scientology exists in Anti-Scientology, too. Yet anti-Scientology is supposed to be better, and more rational than Scientology.

It isn't.

That's why skepticism of both Scientology and anti-Scientology is better than believing either.

Glad you liked the individuation post. That was a huge revelation for me, and it is very much related to these issues we're discussing right now.

How L Ron Hubbard Tricked You: Redefining Individuation Like That's a Bad Thing

I like this post, and think there is a lot of truth in it. But just as I contemplated pressing the 'like' button', it occurred to me that liking your post would make me unpopular on the board. I haven't been following your posting history on ESMB, but I intuit that you are regarded here as someone with extreme views. The fact that I hesitated to 'like' your post tells me that a lot of what you are saying about Scieno-think and anti-Scieno think (as manifested on this board) being similar is true. There's a party line to toe here. Which is fine. I'm not fighting any battles in relation to Scientology. I couldn't care less about anybody's party lines. Perhaps that makes me aloof. But it's interesting that even on a board like this, a party line develops. I'm not agin that, but I think it's worth being aware of it.

I think that the idea that people (anywhere) think 'rationally' based on their perception of truth is nonsense. People have their preconceived notions, and they filter everything through those notions, rather than just observing and seeing what they see.