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Pulling Back The Curtain part 4 Ethos and Obedience

mockingbird

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Pulling Back The Curtain part 4 Ethos and Obedience
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Ron Hubbard studied rhetoric in college. In classic rhetoric several methods of influence are described. Ethos is attempts to persuade by claiming to be an authority. Whether the claim is true or exaggerated or completely false. Ethos is a method of persuasion, not the morality of doing it with or without honesty.

It is accompanied by pathos, attempts to persuade with emotional appeals or to have emotions drive thought and behavior in the ways you desire. Often this means to have emotions replace judgment and reduce critical thinking to persuade without encountering counterarguing. Or to form associations with simple ideas and symbols or phrases and to have the emotions associated with these ideas replace examination of situations and information.

And additionally rhetoric has logos, attempts to appeal to logic and appear rational , logical or scientific. It can be genuine logic or false or just an effort to persuade with no regard for truth. Appealing to the mind's admiration for logic is the heart of logos.

Hubbard used all three methods and tried to link all three in virtually all of his works. In the language from hypnotism he loved ethos is called altitude. Hubbard acknowledged it as prestige , which is what Gustave Le Bon called it in his 1895 book, The Crowd.

It was studied by hypnotists like Hubbard in the course of their work. He is said to have studied it in books from the twenties and thirties on hypnosis. He recommended Hypnotism Comes of Age which certainly covers it.

How authority affects influence has been studied in social psychology experiments with interesting results. The subject of conformity is relevant and the desire to conform and the desire, perhaps instinct, to obey authority is extraordinarily powerful. Each separately is strong enough but together they can seem unstoppable. And Hubbard via ethos and his cult combined both.

As with the other posts in the Pulling Back The Curtain series , I will highlight quotes from the book Age Of Propaganda.

Most of us have a strong desire to be correct-to have "the right" opinions and to perform reasonable actions. When someone disagrees with us, it makes us feel uncomfortable because it suggests our opinions or actions may be wrong or based on misinformation. The greater the disagreement, the greater our discomfort. ( page 189 )

How can we reduce this discomfort ? One way is by simply changing our opinions and actions. The greater the disagreement the greater our opinion change would have to be. ( page 189 )

Now for the scientific part of this: Experiments by Philip Zimbardo suggested great disagreement encouraged a great change in opinion to reconcile this. In 1960 they were covered in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 60 86-94.

But, here is where psychology exceeds philosophy - other experiments were conducted by Carl Hovland, O.J.Harvey, and Muzafer Sherifhmmconducted an experiment and found too extreme a disagreement caused the opinion change to be small or even fail. This was in 1957 in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 55, 244 - 252.

They concluded the greatest opinion changes occurred when there was a moderate difference of opinion between a message and the audiences opinion.

Now this is where the difference between social psychology and philosophy really shows . Even hypnotism gets exposed as far less scientific. When huge contradictions in findings occur psychologists go over the experiments with a fine toothed comb to see why or how. To see if they made a mistake or failed to see a relevant factor.

Several psychologists did just that and tried to form a hypothesis and then develop an experiment to test that hypothesis. The authors of Age Of Propaganda, Anthony Pratkanis and Elliot Aronson considered several ideas they described.

There are at least four ways in which members of an audience can reduce their discomfort: (1) They can change their opinion; (2) they can induce the communicator to change his or her opinion; (3) they can seek support for their views, in spite of what the communicator says; or (4) they can derogate the communicator-convince themselves the communicator is stupid or immoral-and thereby invalidate that person's position. ( page 192 )

They found inducing communicators to often be impossible if through many media and if the communication is received without opportunity for discussion to support their opinions. So that left derogating the communicator or changing their opinion as options.

They considered how messages are received and from whom. They speculated on who would be hard to derogate. Perhaps a respected friend or respected authority would be hard to derogate. And someone with low credibility would be easy to derogate.

Most people seek or naturally have a balance between humility and pride. Part of humility is knowing you could be wrong or have more to learn. Part of pride is knowing you may be right and not need to change your views.

We may tend to bend for others we see as friends or respected authorities, while we may be defensive and counterargue more readily for those we don't like or know and definitely for those we find disgusting and dishonest and dishonorable. Those people we don't know may get our "benefit of the doubt" assumption they are right, merely by claiming to be authorities. We may trust their claim if it seems authentic and no contradictory information is present.

People will consider an extremely discrepant communication to be outside their latitude of acceptance-but only if the communicator is not highly credible. ( page 193 )

The authors then along with two students-Judith Turner and J. Merrill Carlsmith- looked at experiments and focused on how the communicator was seen regarding credibility. They felt that strongly affected the degree of opinion change in the audience and how severe a change could be brought on. They constructed an experiment to test this idea. The experiment focused on the credibility of the source and the discrepancy of the information, in other words how much the communicator was trusted and admired and how big a change in opinion the message was from the audience members. This was in 1963 Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 67, 31-36.

The conflicting results are accounted for: When a communicator has high credibility, the greater the discrepancy between the view he or she advocates and the view of the audience, the more the audience will be persuaded; on the other hand, when a communicator's credibility is doubtful or slim, he or she will produce maximum opinion change at moderate discrepancies. ( page 194 )

This information is particularly important for Scientologists. Hubbard starts very often with doctrine that seems acceptable, like The Way To Happiness or Scientology front groups pretending to do social betterment. Or basic books that don't seem as outlandish as later doctrine. Hubbard was building trust and the opinion that he is an authority on the mind and life before expressing his more extreme ideas. This is quite often the way the introductory routes into Scientology are designed.

This is a fundamental part of the intentional design of the cult. You are if recruited as an adult encouraged to do something that sounds like it may take a small change, perhaps read a book or take a short inexpensive seminar. Consider that a self help class, positive attitude or mild therapy could help people. Not too big a change.

You get told you can believe any religion and participate, seems easy to try. Then very gradually, over small increments you are told more extreme ideas and asked, then demanded to give more time and money to the cult. Finally for most Scientologists all or nearly all of your decision making is required to be under the cult's control.

Hubbard understood from hypnotism the value of authority. He knew attaining and building it was crucial for influencing his followers. He knew a bait and switch of small requests that seem reasonable could become a totalitarian organization and abusive relationship if he built the prestige of an infallible uniquely qualified genius in the minds of his victims. He could by drawing people in with sweet sounding words, gain the opportunity to become indispensable and even sacred to people. Then , and only then, he could entirely enslave them as no counterarguing would be seen as rational.

He gave people the impression of being a humanitarian with authority over a multitude of subjects. Then built the illusion of benefit from his indoctrination and therapy via hypnosis. The euphoria of hypnosis was relabeled as mental and spiritual improvements. This bolstered his claims. Loaded language also reinforces this.

He then achieves even more reinforcement as most cult members are immersed in the cult environment and have peer pressure help to use the bandwagon effect to act as social proof Scientology is correct. And people who counterargue in the cult are ruthlessly oppressed and censored, even shunned. People outside the cult who are friends or family and counterargue are silenced or disconnected from and declared suppressive persons, effectively acting as character assassination.

To overcome Hubbard's influence the willingness to counterargue within the individual cult member must be reactivated. Obviously the longer they are in and the more committed the more forbidden this will feel. But it can and does happen.

Hubbard's perceived authority, the fraudulent results he "proves", and the desires to be consistent, accepted, and obedient to a recognized expert all are the bars and walls in the prison of belief. I hope this information helps to tear them down, and to see them as well. I want people to be helped in their recovery, but also to have compassion for Scientologists.

They are people with blind faith, but cult expert Rick Ross has said "Who blinded them ?". Any of us can be lied to and deceived. It doesn't make us stupid or evil, just human. After twenty five years in Scientology I may have some authority on this. Not to influence you too much with it.
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I would click the "doesn't understand" button, but I don't want you to feel offended.

But, honestly, MB, I have a lot of trouble comprehending what you write, sometimes.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Churchill, thanks for your comment. I am trying to represent ideas from propaganda analysis in simple bite sized bits. I suggest reading my earlier threads on hypnosis and rhetoric. If that doesn't cut it there are very short articles online. Key ideas to get are ethos, logos, pathos, the central and peripheral route, critical thinking and trance logic.


In her book Cults In Our Midst Margaret Singer covers much of this. Steve Hassan has a simple explanation in Freedom of Mind. A step up is Recovery From Cults and Take Back Your life.

Cults Inside Out has the most extensive list and description of cultic studies resources I have seen.

As unappealing as it may sound, if you read a post of mine and don't get an idea you can look it up and read short articles on it.
 
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Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
What makes Scientology so unfathomably evil and destructive are not the rhetoric Hubbard employed, and even not the hypnosis per se.
It was the motherfucking Black Magick upon which he based his "discoveries about the mind and spirit." They give a very clear, unambiguous insight into the sick fuck's mind.
You get lost in the weeds of the "mechanics" of the subject, and overlook that L.Ron Hubbaed wanted power for himself and slavery for his followers.

What you write, Mockingbird, reads like a dissertation of sorts.
But this is ESMB.
People are at various stages of figuring Hubbard's shit out.

Help them. If you can.
Write to be understood. Understand?
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Churchill the word rhetoric includes all methods of persuasion . I am free to write on any of them. I try to be understood, but different people understand different ideas. You are free to write proper or better posts, I won't stop you.

Some people like different ideas. I write on hypnosis because Hubbard studied it and used it extensively . I write on social psychology because it is more scientific than hypnosis. Regarding black magic it is largely bullshit but has persuasive elements . There is nothing magical about it. It is a step beneath hypnosis.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Churchill, Let me put it this way: I don't want people to read what I write and adopt my beliefs. I want them to read it, then look at the concepts and subjects for themselves and form their own beliefs that naturally will not always agree with mine. If someone thinks that the solution to Hubbard doing all their thinking is someone else doing all their thinking they are on the wrong road.

This thread is about influence. In taking in information counterargument can stop or limit influence . Counterargument is in your own mind disagreement or doubt or rejection of information . Someone can say "Hubbard is great !" If you disagree or doubt or reject that it is less persuasive than if you just take in the message .

If you hear information from a source you don't respect or consider an authority it is easier to disagree ( counterargue ) and resist influence .

If the source is an authority in your mind, particularly one who you see as more correct than yourself regarding the information , you tend to change your beliefs to match theirs, even when they strongly disagree with you.

That is the point of this thread. I included information on experiments so people can verify and examine them.

Hubbard understood his influence would be slight until he established his authority in a mind. That is why the cult starts with innocent seeming ideas at first. Hubbard wanted to build authority, then exploit it.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation



I believe what made scientology so destructive for many was an endless fascination with themselves.

The way back out of the cult need not be as boring and complicated as it was on the way in, pseudo-intellectualizing is for wankers.

We got sucked in to something due (at least in part) to our own stupidity and ego. In retrospect much of it was fun ... it certainly kept us occupied (lol) but now we are free and its OK to not understand every nuance of the original trap, because it was a trap created by a nutter.

The wannabe philosophers of ESMB will get no support from me if they are merely trying to justify why they fell down the hole in the first place ... and try and sound clever while doing it.

:whistling:

Endless fascination with yourself is what probably got you sucked in MB and endless fascination with yourself will keep you trapped if you don't make a decision to move on.

PS Putting people (like me) on "ignore" doesn't mean you don't see the posts ... it just means you don't respond to them.




 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on



I believe what made scientology so destructive for many was an endless fascination with themselves.

The way back out of the cult need not be as boring and complicated as it was on the way in, pseudo-intellectualizing is for wankers.

We got sucked in to something due (at least in part) to our own stupidity and ego. In retrospect much of it was fun ... it certainly kept us occupied (lol) but now we are free and its OK to not understand every nuance of the original trap, because it was a trap created by a nutter.

The wannabe philosophers of ESMB will get no support from me if they are merely trying to justify why they fell down the hole in the first place ... and try and sound clever while doing it.

:whistling:

Endless fascination with yourself is what probably got you sucked in MB and endless fascination with yourself will keep you trapped if you don't make a decision to move on.

PS Putting people (like me) on "ignore" doesn't mean you don't see the posts ... it just means you don't respond to them.



HellYeah!

Feels like time for an analogy.

Scientology is like hearing about a really amazing magician and buying a ticket to go see his show.

Then, part way through the performance, he stops and addresses the audience. He confides that he really does have supernatural powers and proceeds to demonstrate levitation. The audience OOOOOHs and AHHHHHHs because the illusion is spectacular.

Then he says that he can teach you how to do it. Not an illusion. He can show you real levitation. For a very tiny fee. Everyone enthusiastically passes the money forward and the lights dim.

Thereafter the magician begins speaking in endless tirades about the history of "real magic" and the tech behind it. It drones on for hours. When people tire of listening (and NOT being taught anything whatsoever, as was promised) they begin to get up and leave. He admonishes them that it is dangerous to leave.

They quickly discover that the exit doors have been locked and there are armed guards to keep them in their seats (for their own good of course).

The lectures and theorizing go on for days and weeks. Eventually, audience members stop trying to escape when they are all driven down into hopeless, speechless, motionless apathy.

Later the audience learns to applaud and laugh and cheer for the magician's lectures.

Eventually, the audience dedicates their entire life to the magician, so that everyone in the world can learn the "real magic" that they now have the ability to perform.

Except that nobody ever learned how to do any "real magic", they only sat for years in lectures about it.

But, nevertheless, the audience members really, really, really do want everyone to have similar magic abilities to their own...on this planet.



(I added the "on this planet" for gravitas, in case you began to laugh or think that Scientology is a complete joke)
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
HellYeah!

Feels like time for an analogy.

Scientology is like hearing about a really amazing magician and buying a ticket to go see his show.

Then, part way through the performance, he stops and addresses the audience. He confides that he really does have supernatural powers and proceeds to demonstrate levitation. The audience OOOOOHs and AHHHHHHs because the illusion is spectacular.

Then he says that he can teach you how to do it. Not an illusion. He can show you real levitation. For a very tiny fee. Everyone enthusiastically passes the money forward and the lights dim.

Thereafter the magician begins speaking in endless tirades about the history of "real magic" and the tech behind it. It drones on for hours. When people tire of listening (and NOT being taught anything whatsoever, as was promised) they begin to get up and leave. He admonishes them that it is dangerous to leave.

They quickly discover that the exit doors have been locked and there are armed guards to keep them in their seats (for their own good of course).

The lectures and theorizing go on for days and weeks. Eventually, audience members stop trying to escape when they are all driven down into hopeless, speechless, motionless apathy.

Later the audience learns to applaud and laugh and cheer for the magician's lectures.

Eventually, the audience dedicates their entire life to the magician, so that everyone in the world can learn the "real magic" that they now have the ability to perform.

Except that nobody ever learned how to do any "real magic", they only sat for years in lectures about it.

But, nevertheless, the audience members really, really, really do want everyone to have similar magic abilities to their own...on this planet.



(I added the "on this planet" for gravitas, in case you began to laugh or think that Scientology is a complete joke)





Oh no ... you quoted my post (MB will see it now for sure) and then added a load of humour, containing common sense.

How could you?

MB ... quick, close your eyes, don't look ... it might be a little bit upsetting ... HH has just posted nothing less than truth revealed and it's simplicity may be very scary.

:no:


 

Free Being Me

Crusader
HelluvaHoax once mentioned simple clarity during a conversation about the cult. Over-thinking is circular mental masturbation. Who really wants to do that for years post-cult picking apart the same cultist bullshit ad nauseum?

Keep it simple moving on enjoying your life on your own terms again. :)

HelluvaHoax said:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-one-more-miscar/page25&p=1020076#post1020076 (locked thread)

Post #241

>snip<[HIGHLIGHT]Life is way too short to be muddied up by rhetorical contortionists.

Alas, the great savior and joy in all things is simple & blessed CLARITY![/HIGHLIGHT]
 
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Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mockingbird, there's a true story that I want to share with you. It happened a little over a year ago and it involved a very tragic circumstance that befell an ESMB member who shall remain nameless.

As so often happens here, people tend to circle their wagons and offer expressions of support and understanding. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, unbeknownst to me, I had erroneously hit the "laugh" reply. It was such a hugely inappropriate response, I can't begin to tell you; unintended, to be sure, but also very likely to cause pain at the worst, or dumbfounded consternation at the very least.

I will forever be grateful to ITYIWT for PMing me and bringing it to my attention so that I could fix it.

We all make mistakes. We are, after all, Homo Sapiens, thank God.

I didn't know you put her on ignore. Did you really? One of the coolest posters in this joint!

My unsolicited advice is open your heart, and your mind will follow.

And yes, it goes without saying that you're free to ignore it.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
MB,

Sometimes those suffering from PTSD become over-thinkers.

The trouble is, the over-thinking doesn't resolve the PTSD condition, but the one trying to figure it all out firmly believes that it will and it creates a vicious circle where the person cannot heal properly.

I don't know you in real life, MB, so I cannot say if this applies to you, but if you think it is possible, then try going a couple of weeks just being blissfully ignorant on purpose :giggle: and just take walks, go for a swim, play with a dog and fill that two weeks with absolutely meaningless but joyful things beyond the bare minimum things you need to do for daily life. Just as an experiment, and see if you feel great afterward and as if your healing has taken a great leap.

:bighug:
We care, MB. Very much.

Sheila
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't see how studying and writing about actual research into how our minds work is overthinking. It is trying to learn. If I was taking books on cars to see how they worked it wouldn't be overthinking.

But with real research on the mind instead of Hubbard's lies some call it overthinking ?

That is strange. And not how I plan to live my life.

I am going to keep reading and writing, so anyone who wants to is welcome to read my stuff.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Have you seen the videos of the Getting Clear conference?

Do you plan to?

Lol! Have i told you you're a nag sometimes? (oh yes, I have...:duh:)

VERY SOON, Churchill. I promise. I'm looking forward to them. but I only just saw the thread yesterday! Give me a few days to get organized, Crikey, I'm kinda busy with the house stuff, I only got the Title TODAY and don't have insurance or water or electricity or anything there yet. Hold your horses, cowboy. :coolwink:

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x x x

Sheila
 

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